[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
Tom Hansen
thansen at moscow.com
Fri Apr 24 06:33:40 PDT 2009
I agree with you 1,000%, Bear.
If the United States does not take action against those responsible for
authorizing such torture (regardless of party affiliation), what little
moral character we retain on this planet will disappear. More so, if
Pelosi is guilty of knowingly approving such actions and is not
prosecuted.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
> --===============1300614289==
>
> Gary,
>
> YES! I think ANYONE involved should be brought before the courts, and
this isn't
> restricted to
> any political party - TORTURE is TORTURE. And each should be held
accountable according to
>
> their culpability.
>
> And can't you see a difference between "extraordinary rendition" and
torture? Plus, if
> you're
> going to go after the first modern president that started all of the
renditions, you need
> to go
> after Ronald Reagan, where he authorized, in a joint FBI-CIA operation,
Fawaz Yunis, who
> was
> wanted in the U.S. courts for his role in the hijacking of a Jordanian
airliner that had
> American
> citizens onboard, was lured onto a boat off the coast of Cyprus and
taken to international
>
> waters, where he was arrested.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> > "What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is that the people who
> > AUTHORIZED and gave the legal opinions that torture is admissible are
> > brought before a court for prosecutions... IF they ( Bush, Cheney,
Rice,
> > Ashcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't break any laws, wouldn't
> > they be acquitted?"
> >
> > If that's to be the case, I would have to assume that you would want
> > Nancy Pelosi added to the afore mentioned group in the dock. Reports
> > I'm seeing have her and other key democrat congresspeople being fully
> > briefed on what was going on as early as 2002. While we're at it lets
> > throw in Bill Clinton for kicking off the whole extraordinary rendition
> > program back in 1995.
> >
> > The idea of rounding up a few key Bush administration officials and
> > making them into raw meat to satisfy the howling of the huffington/kos
> > mob reeks of hypocrisy and partisanship.
> >
> > g
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <bear at moscow.com>
> > To: <jampot at roadrunner.com>; <godshatter at yahoo.com>;
> > <lfalen at turbonet.com>; <bear at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall
> > you
> >
> >
> > > Gary,
> > >
> > > I see your point, and no one would say putting a caterpillar in the
> > cell would be torture,
> > > and
> > > I've got to think that not having the weekend sleep in wouldn't be
> > either. But what about
> > > 183
> > > water boardings of one person? 83 times for another?
> > >
> > > One of the keys to what you said how ever is the term "unlawful
> > combatant". An unlawful
> > > combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who
> > directly engages in
> > > armed
> > > conflict in violation of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and may
> > be detained or
> > > prosecuted
> > > under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action. Now,
> > that is the law as
> > > agreed to
> > > under the International Committee of the Red Cross. Now, the
detention
> > and prosecution
> > > under
> > > domestic law, in this case US law gets to be interesting.
> > >
> > > Is it the policy under domestic US laws to treat prisoners like this?
> > Forget the Sunni or
> > > Shiites,
> > > what about the guy from Twin Falls? IF it is ok to do this to under
> > domestic law, it's ok
> > > to do it
> > > to ANYONE that is detained and prosecuted.
> > >
> > > And as far as a "gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious
to
> > be released and
> > > take a
> > > second shot at killing and maiming Americans", are we talking about
> > them taking shots in
> > > the
> > > US, our country or over in Iraq or Afghanistan - THEIR country? I'm
> > sure the colonial
> > > terrorists
> > > that were killing British soldiers in Massachusetts felt the same way
> > as the Iraqi and
> > > Afghani
> > > combatants feel today.
> > >
> > > What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is that the people who
> > AUTHORIZED and gave the
> > > legal opinions that torture is admissible are brought before a court
> > for prosecutions.
> > > Remember, one of the most serious parts of the post World War Two
> > prosecutions was the
> > > nazi
> > > judges and prosecutors,the people that told Hitler that he wasn't
> > breaking any laws!
> > >
> > > IF they ( Bush, Cheney, Rice, Aschcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't
break
> > any laws, wouldn't
> > > they be
> > > acquitted? Or isn't there any faith in the system that says torture
is
> > ok? And at least
> > > they would
> > > be getting trials, something denied the majority of the captives at
> > Guantánamo Bay
> > > Detention
> > > Camp.
> > >
> > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
--> ----
> -
> > >> This seems to me to be a fair question. If it's considered torture
to
> > put a
> > >> guy in a box with a caterpillar, what about a cell with a fellow
> > terrorist?
> > >> It's really just a matter of degree. If depriving an unlawful
> > combatant of
> > >> sleep is torture what about not allowing the poor dears to sleep in
> > on the
> > >> weekends? Stress positions criminal? What about not providing
> > orthopedic
> > >> queen sized beds and massaging barcoloungers? Pouring water on their
> > ugly
> > >> mugs too harsh? What about insisting that the prisoners take a
> > monthly
> > >> shower whether they need it of not?
> > >>
> > >> Rape as torture? To be sure although I'll take it over having my
> > skin
> > >> removed with eyebrow tweezers, being lowered into a chipper shredder
> > up to
> > >> my navel, being beaten with rods till the number of broken bones
> > exceeds
> > >> ones I.Q. (I know, I know a few fingers and a rib in my particular
> > case) a
> > >> week or two of ground glass suppers and battery acid enemas or being
> > rubbed
> > >> in fat and roasted till your so overcooked the New York Times food
> > critic
> > >> would send you back to the chef and write a scathing review in the
> > Sunday
> > >> style edition.
> > >>
> > >> Who ever remarked that there ought to be a line over which we do not
> > go is
> > >> correct. There is a difference between a harsh interrogation and
> > torture. In
> > >> my opinion we did a pretty fine job of walking that line. Had the
> > >> interrogators indeed been sadistic torturers and not just asking
> > poignant
> > >> questions firmly we should be seeing a trail of corpses and
cripples,
> > not a
> > >> gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious to be released
and
> > take a
> > >> second shot at killing and maiming Americans. It's my understanding
> > that the
> > >> interrogation of these criminals resulted in good information and
> > saved
> > >> lives and the men who brought us that result should be commended,
not
> >
> > >> condemned.
> > >>
> > >> g
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: <bear at moscow.com>
> > >> To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>; "lfalen"
> > <lfalen at turbonet.com>;
> > >> <bear at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:28 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
shall
> > you
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Roger,
> > >> >
> > >> > WHERE do you draw the line as far as "technique" is concerned?
> > >> > IF the alleged terrorist is a woman, is it ok to rape her till she
> > tells
> > >> > us about the plot
> > >> > to bomb
> > >> > LA?
> > >> > Or a man for that matter?
> > >> >
> > >> > AND remember, IF it's justified for the US to do it, it is
> > justified for
> > >> > everyone else
> > >> > too!
> > >> >
> > >> > The reason it's referred to as a "slippery slope" is that the
only
> > >> > direction to go is DOWN
> > >> > HILL!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
--> ----
> > > --
> > >> >
> > >> >> That's an extremely dangerous point of view, Roger. How far do
> > you take
> > >> >> it? It's possible that daily random inspections of citizen's
> > houses by
> > >> >> SWAT teams could yield some data. Or that torturing every Muslim
> > in
> > >> >> America would also yield results. The Internet could be used to
> > pass
> > >> >> encrypted information between terrorist cells, maybe it should be
> > shut
> > >> >> down? Perhaps a "shoot-on-sight" curfew would help make us safer
> > from
> > >> >> the threat of terrorism?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'm tired of this country being run by a bunch of cowards. Draw
a
> > moral
> > >> >> line in the sand, and stick to it. Do what is right because it
is
> > >> >> right, not because it is expedient.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Paul
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> lfalen wrote:
> > >> >> > Bear
> > >> >> > You are wrong on this.
> > >> >> > Because a confession was extracted fron this lady does not mean
> > that
> > >> >> > she was a spy.
> > >> > What
> > >> > we may have done at GITMO had no bearing on how Iran conducts
> > >> > interrogations. They would
> > >> > use brutal tactics no matter what we do.
> > >> >> > As to our security I believe the following:
> > >> >> > 1. If an interrogator thinks that there is good reason to
> > believe a
> > >> >> > detainee has
> > >> > information of an impending attack and does not use what ever
means
> > is
> > >> > necessary to obtain
> > >> > that information and
> > >> >> > 2 There is a subsequent attack that results in a loss of
> > life.then
> > >> >> > 3. Those interrogators should be prosecuted for dereliction of
> > duty.
> > >> >> > Former CIA Director Casey said that over 50% of the valid
> > information
> > >> >> > about al-Quaeda
> > >> > came from detainees and that an attack on L.A was thwarted by
> > information
> > >> > obtained from
> > >> > KSM.
> > >> >> > Roger
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > -----Original message-----
> > >> >> > From: bear at moscow.cotwo year period? How about ten years?m
> > >> >> > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:50:18 -0700
> > >> >> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> > shall you
> > >> >> > reep
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> Well, what we have said is fine, is now coming back to bite
us.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> American-Iranian journalist Roxana Saberi was sentenced to
> > eight
> > >> >> >> years' jail on
> > >> > Saturday
> > >> >> >> after
> > >> >> >> being convicted in a secret trial of spying for the United
> > States. Her
> > >> >> >> Iranian-born
> > >> >> >> father, Reza
> > >> >> >> Saberi, says she may have been tricked into a confession,
> > believing
> > >> >> >> she would be
> > >> > released
> > >> >> >> if
> > >> >> >> she co-operated with the authorities. He said his daughter was
> > so
> > >> >> >> depressed by her
> > >> >> >> sentence -
> > >> >> >> the harshest ever given to a dual national on security charges
> > in
> > >> >> >> Iran - that she is
> > >> >> >> threatening
> > >> >> >> to go on hunger strike.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Will they force feed her like we have force fed the prisoners
> > at
> > >> >> >> Guantánamo Bay
> > >> > Detention
> > >> >> >> Camp when they have gone on hunger strikes? IF they do, what
> > makes us
> > >> >> >> think we have a
> > >> >> >> right
> > >> >> >> to object?
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Did they use enhanced interrogation techniques to discover
that
> > she
> > >> >> >> was a spy? And
> > >> >> >> remember,
> > >> >> >> she was arrested for SPYING. If she was in the United States
> > could we
> > >> >> >> have sued
> > >> > enhanced
> > >> >> >> interrogation techniques? US Supreme Court Justice Antonin
> > Scalia
> > >> >> >> said on BBC Radio
> > >> > 4
> > >> >> >> that
> > >> >> >> since these methods are not intended to punish they do not
> > violate the
> > >> >> >> Eighth
> > >> > Amendment
> > >> > to
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> the United States Constitution, barring "cruel and unusual
> > >> >> >> punishment", and as such
> > >> > may
> > >> >
> > >> >> >> not
> > >> >> >> be unconstitutional.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Well, we started this dog fight, now we pay. How do we get
back
> > on the
> > >> >> >> moral high
> > >> > ground
> > >> >> >> where this kind of behavior from ANY GOVERNMENT is wrong? I
> > believe it
> > >> >> >> starts with
> > >> > the
> > >> >
> > >> >> >> indictment and arrest of George W. Bush et al. Or don't they
> > think
> > >> >> >> they'd get a fair
> > >> >> >> trial? They
> > >> >> >> sure as hell would get better treatment awaiting trial than
> > they gave!
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------
> > >> >> >> This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> > >> >> >> http://www.fsr.com/
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >
> > =========================> =========================> =====
> > >> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> >
> > >
> > =========================> =========================> =====
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ---------------------------------------------
> > >> > This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> > >> > http://www.fsr.com/
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
--> ----
> --
> > > -
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > =========================> =========================> =====
> > >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >
> > =========================> =========================> =====
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> > > http://www.fsr.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> http://www.fsr.com/
>
>
>
> --===============1300614289==
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
> --===============1300614289==--
>
"So keep fightin' for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
produce. And when you get through kickin' ass and celebratin' the sheer
joy of a good fight, be sure to tell those who come after how much fun it
was."
- Molly
Ivins
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent by First Step Internet.
http://www.fsr.com/
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list