[Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
Sue Hovey
suehovey at moscow.com
Mon Sep 29 12:22:31 PDT 2008
Interesting comment, "if you go back and study history you will find that
Johnson was a bigger crook than Nixon ever thought of being." Inasmuch as
I'm not clairvoyant like Roger, and don't have the foggiest idea what Nixon
was thinking, I will simply say that one does not have to "go back and study
history," one can do it from their current position and will still be hard
pressed to prove that Johnson was a bigger crook than Nixon. One can pretty
well substantiate the Johnson presidency was more effective and much less
destructive of our democratic system than the Nixon presidency, but that
wasn't the question, was it?
Sue H.
----- Original Message -----
From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
To: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> Joe
> Just to make it clear, I am not a Nixon fan. There are a lot of things
> about his Administration I disagree with( Wage Price controls being one).
> Because he won by a landside does not mean that I think it was right and
> no I would not like to see berry Bonds elected to the Baseball hall of
> fame. Even though I know very little about him as I am not a baseball fan.
> As I said I am not a Nixon fan, but if you go back and study history you
> will find that Johnson was a bigger crook than Nixon ever thought of
> being.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: joekc at roadrunner.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:34:36 -0700
> To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>
>> Roger,
>>
>> This seems like an important matter, so I'll try to make my point one
>> more time.
>>
>> First, I'll concede that I'm ignorant about the LBJ affair. I missed the
>> information in the early
>> 60s because I was 2 years old. Still, you seem to know more than I do and
>> at least one person
>> who has read the Caro book contacted me offlist telling me that you're
>> right on this score.
>>
>> Second, I think it is presumptuous to say that Nixon would have won had
>> CREEP not done what it
>> did. But that doesn't really matter much to my point. That was the
>> purpose of the Barry Bonds
>> analogy. Do you think he deserves to be elected to the Baseball Hall of
>> Fame? After all, by your
>> argument, he hit a "landslides" worth of homeruns, more than any other
>> person in baseball. If he
>> didn't cheat he still would have hit enough to be worthy of election. But
>> he did cheat and for that
>> reason he is not worthy. That is how I see it. And I think in the
>> Baseball case you'd say the same.
>>
>> Thus, Nixon cheated. He did not deserve the presidency. I think, and this
>> might just be my own
>> personal opinion, that the worse thing that could happen in a democracy
>> is for someone to be
>> elected president who cheated, who did not deserve it for that reason. It
>> flies in the face of our
>> most important value, e.g., that we are a government of the people. Were
>> I running for president I
>> would want to distance myself from folks who helped a former president
>> win by cheating. It looks bad.
>>
>> But this is just appearance. I am not suggesting that you shouldn't vote
>> for McCain because he
>> won't distance himself from Liddy. In several posts I've been explicit
>> about exactly what I am
>> saying -- I listed 4 points -- and those points still hold.
>>
>> Lastly, you can't say, "Liddy didn't do much. He was just one guy." For
>> that claim holds true of any
>> single gangster or drug dealer. He was a key member of a very bad team.
>>
>> --
>> Joe Campbell
>>
>> ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>> > I think we can agree that they were all wrong. Were we disagree is on
>> > the out come of the election. Nixon won by a landslide. What Liddy did
>> > had no bearing on it. That does not make it any less wrong. On what LBJ
>> > did, the lack of universal knowledge of it does not make it any less
>> > wrong. Your search was apparently limited. In the early sixties there
>> > was a lot of information on it.
>> > Roger
>> > -----Original message-----
>> > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
>> > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:01:23 -0700
>> > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> >
>> > > Roger,
>> > >
>> > > This, too, strikes me as a tu quoque fallacy. What do LBJ and the
>> > > Chicago Machine have to do with whether or not Liddy was wrong? If
>> > > Liddy was wrong, he was wrong. If what the others did was the same,
>> > > then they were wrong, too.
>> > >
>> > > I confess that I didn't know anything about LBJ until your post. Here
>> > > is a NYTimes article about a book on the subject, ''Means of
>> > > Ascent,'' by Robert A. Caro.
>> > >
>> > > http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD9133BF932A25751C0A966958260
>> > >
>> > > There are important differences between Watergate and and the LBJ
>> > > case. First, there is just one book that I know of suggesting that
>> > > LBJ stole a campaign, compared with volumes of information about
>> > > Watergate. That LBJ did commit fraud is not universally acknowledge
>> > > whereas the crimes of Watergate are.
>> > >
>> > > Second, there is no Obama/LBJ connection. And LBJ is dead. The
>> > > original post in this thread asked a simple question: If Ayers is a
>> > > problem for Obama, isn't Liddy a worse problem for McCain? My answer
>> > > is "Yes." But I don't really think that either is a problem in the
>> > > sense that you should, say, not vote for one of the candidates
>> > > because of the connection. That is guilt by association. The fact
>> > > that McCain has not distanced himself from Liddy is no reason to not
>> > > vote for McCain. It is odd (given that he is running for president
>> > > and Liddy helped Nixon cheat in winning a presidential election) but
>> > > not a reason not to vote for him.
>> > >
>> > > But this says nothing about your main point, which is that if Liddy
>> > > was wrong, so was LBJ -- provided that Caro is correct (which is
>> > > debatable). I have no problem with saying that if LBJ stole an
>> > > election, that was wrong. It has no bearing on this thread, though.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Joe Campbell
>> > >
>> > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>> > > > Joe
>> > > > I have never said I condoned or that I did not think what the
>> > > > Watergate group did was wrong. You have not answered ny question
>> > > > about Johnson or the Chicago Machine who were successful in
>> > > > steeling elections.
>> > > > Roger
>> > > > -----Original message-----
>> > > > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
>> > > > Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 07:46:49 -0700
>> > > > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> > > >
>> > > > > Roger,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Watergate is significant not for the event itself but because it
>> > > > > revealed a host of other illegal
>> > > > > activities performed by the Committee to Re-Elect the President
>> > > > > (CREEP). I won't list these since
>> > > > > Andreas already mentioned many of those activities. Or you could
>> > > > > just google "Watergate" and
>> > > > > find out the list for yourself. Again, it was not just Watergate.
>> > > > > Liddy was part of a team that
>> > > > > performed numerous illegal activities to steal a presidential
>> > > > > election.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Suppose that you were running for office and you found out that a
>> > > > > group of Democrats rigged the
>> > > > > primary so that you would win (thinking you had the worse chance
>> > > > > of winning in the main
>> > > > > election), stole and released private files indicating that your
>> > > > > campaign manager had psychiatric
>> > > > > problems (I'm trying to find the closest analogy to a VP in your
>> > > > > case), performed illegal wire taps,
>> > > > > and broke into your campaign headquarters. Later you are crushed
>> > > > > in the election, loosing by a
>> > > > > landslide. Are you really going to tell me that you would shrug
>> > > > > it off and say, "Oh, well, it doesn't
>> > > > > matter since the election wasn't even close!"
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The fact is that we'll never know how close the election would
>> > > > > have been were it not for the
>> > > > > actions of CREEP (including Liddy and others).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Here is another analogy. Should Barry Bonds be elected to the
>> > > > > Baseball Hall of Fame? After all, he
>> > > > > has more homeruns than anyone in baseball history. Surely he
>> > > > > would have hit enough homeruns to
>> > > > > gain membership in the Hall even if he didn't cheat. Does that
>> > > > > matter? Were you Commissioner of
>> > > > > Baseball, would it be appropriate for you to associate with one
>> > > > > of the guys who sold him steroids?
>> > > > > Or should you, would you, distance yourself from him?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Joe Campbell
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > Joe
>> > > > > > I dont condone the watergate group, but it did not change the
>> > > > > > election. Do you also condemn Linden Johnson and the Chicago
>> > > > > > Democratic machine who have stolen elections?
>> > > > > > Roger
>> > > > > > -----Original message-----
>> > > > > > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
>> > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:25:01 -0700
>> > > > > > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Roger,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > How can the destruction of property be worse, less
>> > > > > > > democratic, than directly subverting an election?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > Joe Campbell
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > Elections have been stolen from the beginning of this
>> > > > > > > > county. Linden Johnson stole the election in his first run
>> > > > > > > > for congress (missing ballot boxes) and the chicago machine
>> > > > > > > > (dead people voting). None of this is right and the people
>> > > > > > > > responsible should have been prosecuted. The destruction of
>> > > > > > > > property (with it's implicit danger of killing people) to
>> > > > > > > > provoke a change is also a subversion of the democratic
>> > > > > > > > system and is much worse. Both should be roundly condemned.
>> > > > > > > > Roger
>> > > > > > > > -----Original message-----
>> > > > > > > > From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>> > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:16:48 -0700
>> > > > > > > > To: joekc at roadrunner.com, "g. crabtree"
>> > > > > > > > jampot at roadrunner.com
>> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Gary,
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > You are factually incorrect here.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > "2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he recklessly
>> > > > > > > > > endangered lives and
>> > > > > > > > > property while Liddy orchestrated a failed break in.
>> > > > > > > > > McGovern was never a
>> > > > > > > > > viable candidate and what occurred at the Watergate hotel
>> > > > > > > > > did not alter the
>> > > > > > > > > outcome of the election in '72. Both men were attempting
>> > > > > > > > > to "circumvent
>> > > > > > > > > the democratic process" but only one was willing to risk
>> > > > > > > > > the lives of those
>> > > > > > > > > who had nothing to do with his goals."
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Nixon was not after McGovern, he was after Muskie. Muskie
>> > > > > > > > > was the leading candidate for the Democratic Nomination
>> > > > > > > > > in 1972. McGovern was a dark horse who did well in
>> > > > > > > > > caucuses. Muskie was a serious threat to Nixon. Nixon had
>> > > > > > > > > established at Dirty Tricks Campaign against Muskie.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Subverting justice and attempting to rig a national
>> > > > > > > > > election is a very serious crime.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Donovan
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> > > > > > > > > To: joekc at roadrunner.com
>> > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 7:20 AM
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > I disagree with your summary somewhat. I would modify it
>> > > > > > > > > as follows:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > 1. What Ayers did was bad and what Liddy did was bad.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > 2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he recklessly
>> > > > > > > > > endangered lives and
>> > > > > > > > > property while Liddy orchestrated a failed break in.
>> > > > > > > > > McGovern was never a
>> > > > > > > > > viable candidate and what occurred at the Watergate hotel
>> > > > > > > > > did not alter the
>> > > > > > > > > outcome of the election in '72. Both men were attempting
>> > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > "circumvent
>> > > > > > > > > the democratic process" but only one was willing to risk
>> > > > > > > > > the lives of
>> > > > > > > > > those
>> > > > > > > > > who had nothing to do with his goals.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > 3. Neither is a major issue in the upcoming election but,
>> > > > > > > > > you are judged by
>> > > > > > > > > the company you keep. Ayers is an unrepentant communist
>> > > > > > > > > terrorist.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > 4. If Liddy is an issue (and, as you pointed out, he's
>> > > > > > > > > not) Ayers still is.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > He, along with Barry's other friends and mentors Frank
>> > > > > > > > > Marshall Davis, Saul
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Alinsky, Jeremiah Wright, etc. give us a major insight
>> > > > > > > > > into what we can
>> > > > > > > > > expect from the anointed one and many, myself included,
>> > > > > > > > > do not like what is
>> > > > > > > > > revealed.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > g
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > > > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 7:32 PM
>> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Gary (if I may),
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > I'm sorry for suggesting that you don't know anything
>> > > > > > > > > about American
>> > > > > > > > > history. It was a sarcastic
>> > > > > > > > > comment, a failed attempt at humor: "If you think that
>> > > > > > > > > Nixon resigned
>> > > > > > > > > because of a botched
>> > > > > > > > > burglary, then ..."
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Nonetheless, Liddy was not a "foot soldier." He was a
>> > > > > > > > > chief
>> > > > > > > > > operative. Maybe
>> > > > > > > > > not a general (Nixon)
>> > > > > > > > > or a lieutenant (Dean) but not a private, more like a
>> > > > > > > > > sergeant, like William
>> > > > > > > > > Cally. Certainly others
>> > > > > > > > > were perhaps more responsible, but weren't Cally and
>> > > > > > > > > Liddy also responsible
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > for their actions?
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Lastly, I'm not trying to suggest that McCain should
>> > > > > > > > > "disassociate
>> > > > > > > > > himself
>> > > > > > > > > from the man." I believe
>> > > > > > > > > in redemption. I can wrap my head around the idea that
>> > > > > > > > > Liddy is reformed.
>> > > > > > > > > I'm not asking McCain
>> > > > > > > > > to distance himself from Liddy (though were I running,
>> > > > > > > > > I'd want to make it
>> > > > > > > > > clear that cheating is
>> > > > > > > > > not the American way).
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > You've forgotten about the initial thread. The point is
>> > > > > > > > > that
>> > > > > > > > > Republican's
>> > > > > > > > > have been suggesting
>> > > > > > > > > that the Obama-Ayers connection is an issue. If you
>> > > > > > > > > google "Obama Ayers
>> > > > > > > > > controversy" you get:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama–Ayers_controversy
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > But if you google "McCain Liddy controversy" there is no
>> > > > > > > > > similar
>> > > > > > > > > wikipedia
>> > > > > > > > > listing. Or any listing
>> > > > > > > > > that deals with this "controversy" since it is not a
>> > > > > > > > > controversy.
>> > > > > > > > > That was
>> > > > > > > > > the initial point of the
>> > > > > > > > > post, namely. that if the former is a controversy, then
>> > > > > > > > > so should be the
>> > > > > > > > > latter.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > I'm happy to say that McCain-and-Liddy is fine (though I
>> > > > > > > > > find it odd that
>> > > > > > > > > someone who is running
>> > > > > > > > > for the presidency of the US doesn't distance himself
>> > > > > > > > > from someone who has
>> > > > > > > > > tried to circumvent
>> > > > > > > > > the democratic process). But then what is all this hay
>> > > > > > > > > about
>> > > > > > > > > Obama-and-Ayers?
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > To summarize:
>> > > > > > > > > 1. Ayers is bad and Liddy is bad. (I'm not suggesting
>> > > > > > > > > that Ayers is good.)
>> > > > > > > > > 2. Liddy is worse than Ayers (one blew up buildings; the
>> > > > > > > > > other was part of a
>> > > > > > > > > team that
>> > > > > > > > > succeeded in winning a presidential election, in part, by
>> > > > > > > > > cheating).
>> > > > > > > > > 3. Neither is an issue in the recent election, for guilt
>> > > > > > > > > by association is a
>> > > > > > > > > fallacy.
>> > > > > > > > > 4. If Ayers is an issue (and Republicans have made it an
>> > > > > > > > > issue), then Liddy
>> > > > > > > > > is a bigger issue.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > All the best, Joe
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > I know a bit about American history and Watergate in
>> > > > > > > > > > particular. Are you
>> > > > > > > > > > trying to tell me that Watergate was all about G.
>> > > > > > > > > > Gordon Liddy? Liddy was
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > > > minor player in the Watergate scandal, a foot soldier
>> > > > > > > > > > who ended up bearing
>> > > > > > > > > > the brunt of the punishment for people above him. John
>> > > > > > > > > > Dean, A Watergate
>> > > > > > > > > > principal who has been held up on this forum as a man
>> > > > > > > > > > whose opinion is
>> > > > > > > > > > worthy of respectful consideration, had far more to do
>> > > > > > > > > > with Watergate and
>> > > > > > > > > > it's subsequent cover up then Liddy ever did. Liddy
>> > > > > > > > > > readily admitted
>> > > > > > > > > that
>> > > > > > > > > > he did the crime, he did the time, he paid his debt to
>> > > > > > > > > > society and has
>> > > > > > > > > > gone
>> > > > > > > > > > on to lead a decent life. That McCain should have to
>> > > > > > > > > > move heaven and earth
>> > > > > > > > > > to disassociate himself from the man seems
>> > > > > > > > > > unreasonable.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > g
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > > > > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:38 PM
>> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > You are twisting the argument. No one is sticking up
>> > > > > > > > > > > for Ayers. The
>> > > > > > > > > > > point
>> > > > > > > > > > > is that if Ayers matters
>> > > > > > > > > > > to Obama's reputation, Liddy should matter to
>> > > > > > > > > > > McCain's.
>> > > > > > > > > Another point is
>> > > > > > > > > > > that, relatively speaking,
>> > > > > > > > > > > Ayers is not worse than Liddy and Liddy is not better
>> > > > > > > > > > > than Ayers. I
>> > > > > > > > > > > think
>> > > > > > > > > > > Liddy is far worse.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > Watergate revealed a much deeper threat to American
>> > > > > > > > > > > democracy. The
>> > > > > > > > > > > simple
>> > > > > > > > > > > fact is that Nixon
>> > > > > > > > > > > cheated in a broad number of ways. Cheated in winning
>> > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > presidential
>> > > > > > > > > > > election. Look up "Watergate," do a bit of research,
>> > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > learn something
>> > > > > > > > > > > about American history. Are you trying to
>> > > > > > > > > > > tell me that that Nixon resigned the presidency
>> > > > > > > > > > > merely because of an
>> > > > > > > > > > > unsuccessful burglary?
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > What does democracy stand for if not for fair
>> > > > > > > > > > > elections for the
>> > > > > > > > > > > presidency
>> > > > > > > > > > > of the US, where the
>> > > > > > > > > > > people may be certain that the choice is the product
>> > > > > > > > > > > of their will
>> > > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > > > the will of a select few?
>> > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that Barry Bonds deserves the home run
>> > > > > > > > > > > king crown if it
>> > > > > > > > > > > turns
>> > > > > > > > > > > out that he took
>> > > > > > > > > > > steroids? No. He cheated. At the very least, Nixon
>> > > > > > > > > > > cheated in his
>> > > > > > > > > second
>> > > > > > > > > > > presidential bid, cheated
>> > > > > > > > > > > in an election for the president of the US. He won
>> > > > > > > > > > > unfairly and Liddy
>> > > > > > > > > > > helped.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > And Ayers did not get off scot free. The charges were
>> > > > > > > > > > > dropped. Why?
>> > > > > > > > > > > Prosecutorial misconduct.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > >> I guess since the argument being put forward is that
>> > > > > > > > > > >> Ayers should
>> > > > > > > > > be
>> > > > > > > > > > >> given a
>> > > > > > > > > > >> bye because he didn't really cause any harm, the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> same slack
>> > > > > > > > > needs to be
>> > > > > > > > > > >> granted to Mr. Liddy. After all, the Watergate break
>> > > > > > > > > > >> in was
>> > > > > > > > > > >> unsuccessful
>> > > > > > > > > > >> and
>> > > > > > > > > > >> the burglars (a fairly incompetent bunch) were all
>> > > > > > > > > > >> arrested. So,
>> > > > > > > > > since
>> > > > > > > > > > >> no
>> > > > > > > > > > >> presidential campaign was hijacked and no vote was
>> > > > > > > > > > >> taken out of
>> > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> hands
>> > > > > > > > > > >> of
>> > > > > > > > > > >> the people it seems to me that you are holding
>> > > > > > > > > > >> G.Gordon to a much
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >> higher
>> > > > > > > > > > >> standard. At the very least Ayers committed an act
>> > > > > > > > > > >> of gross
>> > > > > > > > > vandalism
>> > > > > > > > > > >> and
>> > > > > > > > > > >> reckless endangerment and got off Scot free. Liddy
>> > > > > > > > > > >> was complicit
>> > > > > > > > > in a
>> > > > > > > > > > >> failed
>> > > > > > > > > > >> break in and did five and a half years. He did the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> crime and he
>> > > > > > > > > did the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> time. Throwing in some silly disclaimer whenever his
>> > > > > > > > > > >> name comes
>> > > > > > > > > up
>> > > > > > > > > > >> seems
>> > > > > > > > > > >> as
>> > > > > > > > > > >> daft and unnecessary as saying "setting off bombs
>> > > > > > > > > > >> designed
>> > > > > > > > > to maximize
>> > > > > > > > > > >> injury and death in public places is a very, very
>> > > > > > > > > > >> bad thing.
>> > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> g
>> > > > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > > > > >> From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:20 AM
>> > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > What would be worse: a terrorist from another land
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > blowing
>> > > > > > > > > up some
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > buildings or a terrorist from
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > another land hijacking a presidential campaign and
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > ensuring
>> > > > > > > > > that one
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > candidate wins over
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > another? I think that hijacking a presidential
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > campaign is
>> > > > > > > > > about the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > worst
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > thing that anyone can
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > do in a democracy. I'm a bit shocked that not
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > everyone
>> > > > > > > > > sees it this
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > way.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > Like Donovan I'm no fan
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > of Ayers but to post anything on this topic
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > without
>> > > > > > > > > condemning Liddy
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > seems
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > to be an insult to our
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > form of government. Why not at least throw in a
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > "Oh, by
>> > > > > > > > > the way
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > taking
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > vote for president out
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > of the people and putting it into the hands of a
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > few is a
>> > > > > > > > > very, very
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > bad
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > thing."
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > --
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > Joe Campbell
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Read what I wrote. I did not claim that he killed
>> > > > > > > > > anyone. I said
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> that
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> act of setting off explosives wrapped in nails in
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> public
>> > > > > > > > > places is
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> akin
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> to attempted murder. If I light your apartment
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> building
>> > > > > > > > > on fire and,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> by
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> the grace of God, no one is injured or killed am
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> I
>> > > > > > > > > mearly guilty of
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> failure to obtain a permit for an open burn?
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g. crabtree
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:46 PM
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack
>> > > > > > > > > Obama
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Gary,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> I don't condone the actions of Ayers. But
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> he
>> > > > > > > > > never killed
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> anyone.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To say he did is an incorrect statement. If you
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> can
>> > > > > > > > > demonstrate to
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> me
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> (an
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> online article etc.) he killed someone, I will
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> accept
>> > > > > > > > > your statement
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> as
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> fact. Otherwise, I say your judgment and
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> understanding
>> > > > > > > > > on this
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> matter
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> is
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> deeply in question.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Best Regards,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Donovan
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, g. crabtree
>> > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: g. crabtree
>> > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
>> > > > > > > > > Barack Obama
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
>> > > > > > > > > "Andreas Schou"
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> <ophite at gmail.com>, "vision2020"
>> > > > > > > > > <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 5:30 AM
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> "Are you insinuating that Bill Ayers
>> > > > > > > > > tried to kill
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> people?"
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> No, I am not insinuating I am saying it
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> flat
>> > > > > > > > > out. Placing
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> anti
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> personnel bombs in public places is attempted
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> murder.
>> > > > > > > > > When the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> vermin
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> in
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Baghdad or Sader City or Fallujah set of IED's
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> they
>> > > > > > > > > don't know the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> names
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> of those they are attempting to murder and maim.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Is it
>> > > > > > > > > your
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> contention
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> that they are not trying to kill people?
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> crabtree
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1:42 AM
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> &
>> > > > > > > > > Barack Obama
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> "No small accomplishment. Oh
>> > > > > > > > > yeah, he has never
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> attempted to slaughter soldiers and police via
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> the
>> > > > > > > > > cowardly practice
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> of
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> hiding and detonating explosives wrapped in
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> nails."
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Are you insinuating that Bill
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Ayers
>> > > > > > > > > tried to kill
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> people? I am no fan of Ayers. But I think you are
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> off
>> > > > > > > > > base saying he
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> killed, or even attempted to kill people. If you
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> think
>> > > > > > > > > this, please
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> provide us with the names of people Ayers
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> attempted to
>> > > > > > > > > kill, or who
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> he
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> killed.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> The people that McCain worked
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> for
>> > > > > > > > > between 1979 and
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1992
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> harmed more people than Ayers.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Best Regards,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Donovan
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, g.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> crabtree
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: g. crabtree
>> > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Bill Ayers
>> > > > > > > > > & Barack
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Obama
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: "Andreas Schou"
>> > > > > > > > > <ophite at gmail.com>,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> "vision2020"
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Date: Tuesday, September 16,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 2008,
>> > > > > > > > > 7:24 PM
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> So what's your problem with the G-Man? The guy
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> did
>> > > > > > > > > his time in
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> anything
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> but
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> country club conditions until your hero, James
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Earl
>> > > > > > > > > Carter, commuted
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> his
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> sentence. He never ratted out his associates and
>> > > > > > > > > he's managed to
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> support
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> himself and his family as an ex-con. No small
>> > > > > > > > > accomplishment. Oh
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> yeah,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> he
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> has never attempted to slaughter soldiers and
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> police via
>> > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> cowardly
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> practice of hiding and detonating explosives
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> wrapped in
>> > > > > > > > > nails. All
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> things
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> considered, I know that I would much rather
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> associate
>> > > > > > > > > with a man who
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> served
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> his time and was released from prison than an
>> > > > > > > > > unrepentant attempted
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> murderer
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> whose only regret is that he couldn't cause more
>> > > > > > > > > carnage and mayhem.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Of
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> course that's just me.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:32 PM
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > They both knew each other. They were both
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > appointed
>> > > > > > > > > to co-chair an
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > education panel by Mayor Daley, and the prior
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > state
>> > > > > > > > > Senator from
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Obama's seat introduced him at Bill Ayers'
>> > > > > > > > > house. No large,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> ongoing
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > connection. But here's the thing:
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Why isn't John McCain's friendship with G.
>> > > > > > > > > Gordon Liddy a campaign
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > issue? Is there any defensible reason for
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > treating
>> > > > > > > > > Liddy like a
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > rehabilitated member of the community, rather
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > than
>> > > > > > > > > as a threat to
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > the
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Republic? If so, why?
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > -- ACS
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
>> > > > > > > > > =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > List services made available by First Step
>> > > > > > > > > Internet,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > 1994.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
>> > > > > > > > > =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> List services made available by First Step
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Internet,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1994.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> List services made available by First Step
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Internet,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1994.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >> =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > List services made available by First Step
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > Internet,
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > > > > > > > > >> > =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
>> > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > > > > > > > =======================================================
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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