[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: Lawyers' duty
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Mon Sep 22 01:03:59 PDT 2008
Paul,
That isn't the argument. Everyone is entitled to a defense.
Best Regards,
Donovan
--- On Sun, 9/21/08, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Vision2020] Lawyers' duty
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>, "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008, 3:47 PM
You don't want Sunil judging his clients and helping only the obviously
innocent ones, because you might look guilty someday when you're
innocent and need an unbiased pubic defender yourself.
Innocent people can look guilty. Guilty people can look innocent.
That's one of the problems the system is designed to solve.
Paul
Donovan Arnold wrote:
> Sunil,
>
> I think you make my case for me better than I can. Many lawyers aren't
> interested in justice, just winning and money.
> img20080920183325
> Our legal system is broken, not just for the innocent, but also
> criminals. As you said, innocent people are losing their rights every
> year. While real criminals and terrorists are gaining more.
>
> I disagree with you that the US has historically been so greedy and
> more about winning over doing what was is right and just. Never has
> there been such a nation as judicious and greedy as the US in the
> modern era. We have 90% of the world's lawyers and only 5% of the
> population. Most of the lawyers I have encountered, don't care about
> justice, what is good for society, or what is just plain right. They
> only care for their goals and interests.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>
> --- On *Sat, 9/20/08, Sunil Ramalingam
> /<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>/* wrote:
>
> From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Lawyers' duty
> To:
> Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 6:47 PM
>
> You are describing the legal system you wish we had, not the one
> we actually have. The values you are saying we should have as
> lawyers are not the values we have or have ever had in our
> society. The system you wish we had would harm my clients.
>
> My only duty is to my client, not to society. There is another
> lawyer on the other side, and that lawyer has a duty to society.
> You are stating your views, but they do not accurately state my
> duty at all.
>
> I've had lots of clients plead guilty, far, far more than I've
> ever taken to trial. Most defendants plead guilty, and do so
> because it's in their best interest. Of course we try to make the
> decision that's in the client's best interest, and to get them
the
> best sentence we can. Not the sentence in proportion to the
> offense, but the best sentence we can. Any duty regarding
> proportionality resides with the judge. I don't want something
> disproportionately harsh, but if I can get a lighter sentence for
> my client than what would be proportional, my duty is to strive
> for that.
>
> My clients' rights shrivel each year. That means yours do too.
>
> Finally, I don't know anyone around here charging $250/hr in
> criminal cases.
>
> Sunil
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:55:42 -0700
> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Lawyers' duty
> To: sunilramalingam at himg20080920183325otmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>
> Sunil,
>
> You write,
>
> "Of course defense lawyers want to win when they go to trial.
> That's our job."
>
> That's my point. It doesn't matter to too many lawyers if they
are
> right or wrong, or if they do harm to the overall community, or an
> innocent individual, they just want to win. That is what it is
> about for them.
>
> "Our only job is to represent the client regardless of our views
> of his or her guilt or innocence."
>
> I disagree. Your first job is to be a responsible member of the
> community. Not to destroy it or bring harm to its innocents.
>
> "We are to represent them within the bounds of our ethical
> obligations and all applicable rules. "
>
> That is another problem. Many lawyers don't have ethical
> obligations and rules are subject to the interpretation of the
> lawyer to fit his/her desired outcome.
>
>
> " I have not yet had a client who wanted me to to lose the case
> for his or her benefit."
>
> You have never had someone plead guilty? Try to get help. Just
> want a fair sentence in proportion to the offense?
>
> "As to moral corruption, I'm not sure what you mean. I would
be
> corrupt if I did not try to win for my client."
>
> I think a lawyer should do what is in the best interests of the
> client and the community. Work with the prosecutor and judge. Get
> the person fair sentence and treatment. Instead, we seem to
> often have a prosecutor that wants the death penalty for
> jaywalking or a defense attorney that wants the person free to
> commit crimes against the community with impunity if they had
> their way.
>
> We have too many rights for the criminals, and little for the
> innocent. I am not aware of this type of behavior in our nation's
> past where criminals go free when it is so obvious to layman they
> are guilty and continue to do harm after they are released.
>
> Look at Mark Foley, Micheal Jackson, OJ Simpson, Bill Ayers, and
> many other people go free that are clearly guilty of crimes
> against other humans. Many others get off with incredibly light
> sentences for the crimes they commit.
>
> Further, if most lawyers really believed their clients right to a
> fair defense, they would not be charging $250 an hour, which
> clearly states, only the upper classes have the right to quality
> representation. What many lawyers really believe in is getting
> rich off the misfortune of others, with deception, and
> manipulation of the lawyers. Our legal system is about $$$$$. Not
> justice.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Sat, 9/20/08, Sunil Ramalingam
> /<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>/* wrote:
>
> From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Lawyers' duty
> To:
> Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 9:02 AM
>
> Donovan,
>
> I hope I can say this without the usual disintegration that
> often follows my attempts to communicate with you.
>
> Of course defense lawyers want to win when they go to trial.
> That's our job. Our only job is to represent the client
> regardless of our views of his or her guilt or innocence. We
> are to represent them within timg20080920183325he bounds of
> our ethical obligations and all applicable rules. I have not
> yet had a client who wanted me to to lose the case for his or
> her benefit.
>
> As to moral corruption, I'm not sure what you mean. I would
> be corrupt if I did not try to win for my client.
>
> I don't know why you think this is something new. Can you
> point to something in our legal history that suggests lawyers
> did not owe their sole duty to their clients in the past?
>
> Sunil
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:06:07 -0700
> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> To: lfalen at turbonet.com; ophite at gmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>
> Andreas,
>
> Good people work to find the truth and to bring justice. Our
> legal system doesn't do that much of the time. Often because
> we have bad lawyers that want to "WIN" more than they
want to
> do what is right for the community and their client.
>
> People are entitled to fair and appropriate counsel. They
> should not be allowed to harm others and their community
> because they can buy lawyers with no morals only interested in
> winning at any cost to get them off from a crime.
>
> A lawyer that punishes someone beyond their crime is doing
> society harm. A lawyers that gets a criminal off scott free
> from a crime is doing harm to their client and to the
> community. They do because they want to win, not because of
> any other reason.
>
> The idea of "the right to fair defense" should not, not
has
> it ever until recently, meant, a right to put yourself above
> the law if you can afford a morally corrupted lawyer.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 9/19/08, Andreas Schou /<ophite at gmail.com>/*
wrote:
>
> From: Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> To: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Cc: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Chuck Kovis"
> <ckovis at turbonet.com>, "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "g. crabtree"
<jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Date: Friday, September 19, 2008, 10:44 AM
>
> >> A good lawyer should be one that brings justice to
society, not one who
> can free criminals to victimize others again with impunity.
>
> "A good lawyer works for the prosecution, not for the
defense," is
> what you mean, right? Because no one would ever defend an
accused
> criminal other than scum?
>
> -- ACS
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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