[Vision2020] Barack Obama's Muslim Childhood

[No Weatherman]

Chas:

Respectfully, Pipes sought to refute Obama's "always" and "never"
claim, which is a very low threshold to satisfy.

Pipes satisfied the threshold, at least for me, with the NYT quote of
Obama's half-sister saying, "My whole family was Muslim, and most of
the people I knew were Muslim."

I think the real issue here is that you have a tendency to use
yourself and your life experiences as the measure to judge these
things. You did it in our conversation about Wright and you do it
again below.

And since you call Pipes an idiot so easily, I have to wonder out loud
how you define one.



On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:18, No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com>
> provided for our consideration:
>
>> Barack Obama's Muslim Childhood
>> by Daniel Pipes
>
> Examine Pipes' words and see the idiot revealed.
>
> He writes:
>
>> "Always" and "never" leave little room for equivocation. But many
>> biographical facts, culled mainly from the American press, suggest
>> that, when growing up, the Democratic candidate for president both saw
>> himself and was seen as a Muslim.
>
> Read the entire article and find one piece of evidence that 3rd grader
> Obama ever "saw himself" as a Muslim.
>
> In one half-witted attempt, he writes:
>
>> Obama himself says that while living in Indonesia, a Muslim
>> country, he "didn't practice [Islam]," implicitly acknowledging a
>> Muslim identity.
>
> I plan on living in India one day, a predominantly Hindu nation.  I
> don't anticipate converting to Hinduism.  After I eventually leave
> there, I might truthfully say, "I didn't practice Hinduism," and I
> wouldn't be acknowledging a Hindu identity, implicitly or otherwise.
>
> Pipes also writes:
>
>> Obama's having been born and raised a Muslim and having left the faith
>> to become a Christian make him neither more nor less qualified to
>> become president of the United States. But if he was born and raised a
>> Muslim and is now hiding that fact, this points to a major deceit, a
>> fundamental misrepresentation about himself that has profound
>> implications about his character and his suitability as president.
>
> Let's carefully examine the above paragraph:
>
>> If he was born and raised a Muslim
>
> That's an awfully big if, which Pipes comes nowhere near
> substantiating, but let's address it, anyway.
>
> My parents attended a Methodist church until I was in the 4th grade,
> and I with them, but I was certainly never a Methodist, despite what
> the church rolls might have said.
>
> Is anyone really born into a religion?  Born Jewish, so you are
> Jewish?  Born Catholic, so you are Catholic?  Born Muslim, so you are
> Muslim?  I might concede that this was possible if, upon exiting the
> womb, you raised your wobbly head and proclaimed, "I am a Catholic!"
> Of course, this would have to be accompanied by some sign that you
> miraculously possessed full-awareness of what being a Catholic meant.
>
> Only in this sense would the allegation that Obama was born a Muslim
> have any pertinence.
>
> As far as being "raised a Muslim," are you finished being raised by
> the 3rd grade?
>
>> and is now hiding that fact, this points to a major deceit,
>
> The entire thought properly becomes:
>
> "If [Obama] was born in an Islamic nation, and and was exposed as a
> young boy to Islamic culture,  and is now hiding that fact, this
> points to a major deceit,"
>
> This is the only question that can authentically be raised, and Pipes
> himself documents that Obama is hiding none of this.
>
> Thank you, Pipes, for providing the sources to destroy your own
> argument, even if that wasn't your intention.
>
> Chas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Obama asserted in December, "I've always been a Christian," and he has
>> adamantly denied ever having been a Muslim. "The only connection I've
>> had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that
>> country [Kenya]. But I've never practiced Islam."
>> http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/12/22/531492.aspx
>
>>  In February, he claimed: "I have never been a Muslim. . . . other
>> than my name and the fact that I lived in a populous Muslim country
>> for 4 years when I was a child [Indonesia, 1967–71] I have very little
>> connection to the Islamic religion."
>> http://elections.jta.org/2008/02/25/obama-reaches-out-to-jewish-leaders/
>>
>>
>> Obama's Kenyan birth father: In Islam, religion passes from the father
>> to the child. Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. (1936–1982) was a Muslim who
>> named his boy Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. Only Muslim children are named
>> "Hussein".
>>
>> Obama's Indonesian family: His stepfather, Lolo Soetoro, was also a
>> Muslim. In fact, as Obama's half-sister, Maya Soetoro-Ng explained to
>> Jodi Kantor of the New York Times: "My whole family was Muslim, and
>> most of the people I knew were Muslim."
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/us/politics/30obama.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print
>>
>> An Indonesian publication, the Banjarmasin Post reports a former
>> classmate, Rony Amir, recalling that "All the relatives of Barry's
>> father were very devout Muslims."
>> http://www.indomedia.com/bpost/072006/9/depan/utama4.htm
>>
>> The Catholic school: Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press reports
>> that "documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim" while at a Catholic
>> school during first through third grades.
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012400371_pf.html
>>
>> Kim Barker of the Chicago Tribune confirms that Obama was "listed as a
>> Muslim on the registration form for the Catholic school."
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0703250340mar25,1,6469645,print.story?ctrack=4&cset=true
>>
>> A blogger who goes by "An American Expat in Southeast Asia" found that
>> "Barack Hussein Obama was registered under the name 'Barry Soetoro'
>> serial number 203 and entered the Franciscan Asisi Primary School on 1
>> January 1968 and sat in class 1B. . . . Barry's religion was listed as
>> Islam."
>> http://laotze.blogspot.com/2007/01/tracking-down-obama-in-indonesia-part-3.html
>>
>> The public school: Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times learned from
>> Indonesians familiar with Obama when he lived in Jakarta that he "was
>> registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended."
>> http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.obama16mar16,0,1634059,print.story?coll=bal_news_nation_promo
>>
>> Haroon Siddiqui of the Toronto Star visited the Jakarta public school
>> Obama attended and found that "Three of his teachers have said he was
>> enrolled as a Muslim." Although Siddiqui cautions that "With the
>> school records missing, eaten by bugs, one has to rely on people's
>> shifting memories," he cites only one retired teacher, Tine Hahiyari,
>> retracting her earlier certainty about Obama's being registered as a
>> Muslim.
>> http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/225233
>>
>> Koran class: In his autobiography, Dreams of My Father, Obama relates
>> how he got into trouble for making faces during Koranic studies,
>> thereby revealing he was a Muslim, for Indonesian students in his day
>> attended religious classes according to their faith. Indeed, Obama
>> still retains knowledge from that class: Nicholas D. Kristof of the
>> New York Times, reports that Obama "recalled the opening lines of the
>> Arabic call to prayer, reciting them [to Kristof] with a first-rate
>> accent."
>> http://select.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/opinion/06kristof.html?_r=4&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print
>>
>> Mosque attendance: Obama's half-sister recalled that the family
>> attended the mosque "for big communal events." Watson learned from
>> childhood friends that "Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the
>> local mosque." Barker found that "Obama occasionally followed his
>> stepfather to the mosque for Friday prayers." One Indonesia friend,
>> Zulfin Adi, states that Obama "was Muslim. He went to the mosque. I
>> remember him wearing a sarong" (a garment associated with Muslims).
>>
>> Piety: Obama himself says that while living in Indonesia, a Muslim
>> country, he "didn't practice [Islam]," implicitly acknowledging a
>> Muslim identity. Indonesians differ in their memories of him. One,
>> Rony Amir, describes Obama as "previously quite religious in Islam."
>> http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/12/23/voter-asks-obama-about-muslim-background/
>>
>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Apr. 29, 2008 update: This article builds on two prior ones on the
>> matter of Barack Obama and Islam. First, "Was Barack Obama a Muslim?"
>> considered the implications of his Muslim childhood; second,
>> "Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam" responded to a critique of
>> the first article. This third one brings the evidence together in a
>> single place.
>>
>> Aug. 25, 2008 update: I review the confusion of Muslim reactions to
>> Obama in "Barack Obama through Muslim Eyes."
>> http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5544
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> "Lady, when I'm with you I'm smiling."
>