[Vision2020] An open letter to my liberal friends [was ignore trolls]

[No Weatherman]

Joe,

You constantly, and condescendingly, tell others to read a book on
logic, well, here's a tip for you. Take your own advice and read a
book on logic. That way you might learn to separate the merits of an
argument from the one making it.

Also, it might help you to lose the term "troll" because demeaning the
person making the argument usually leads to a slippery slide that
falls into the ad hominem fallacy.

I would use the word "therefore" but this isn't an argument — just two
cents from the one who you couldn't buy off with one hun.




On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:27 PM,  <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Saundra,
>
> Trolls would not succeed if they didn't have some point to make. The troll in question, for
> instance, was acknowledge by several non-trolls to make worthwhile points. Not that I
> agree with them, but there is not much difference in dealing with the troll then there is
> in dealing with some others.
>
> The analogy between the drug addict and the troll is wrong for the simple reason that
> words are not drugs. If they were, then maybe none of us should write anything!
>
> Again, I don't know how to deal with trolls, and I'm not advocating a general policy.
> If people want to avoid trolls fine. I wouldn't make a general statement against it.
> I'm commenting on a general statement against my behavior, that is all.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- Saundra Lund <sslund_2007 at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Joe wrote:
>> "I'm not asking you to be like me, to accept the view above (though if you want to discuss it in more detail, I'm ready to do so). I'm just asking that you respect that I have the view. I don't want to be you, or respond to the problems in the way that you are responding to them. That strikes me as a failure. I want to be me because that is the way that seems right for me to be."
>>
>> And, that's fine with me -- my response was simply to indicate that I personally agree with the idea expressed by others and why I think the strategy is a sound one with respect to trolls specifically.
>>
>> I will say that I think many of the points you make, Joe, don't relate to interactions with trolls who thrive on disruption.  It's not like, for instance, the conversations I have with my uber conservative, lifelong NRA member, law enforcement brother.  Though we disagree, the conversations start from and end on a basis of mutual respect.  He is no more trying to whip me into a frenzy than I am him, and we both abhor the hate-mongering that can be found throughout the political spectrum.
>>
>> I've had extensive onlist and off conversations with Visionaries whose views are the opposite of mine, as well as with folks whose views are similar but not identical to mine, conversations I hope we each learned something from.  I could name names, but the point is that they were honest about who they were and where they were coming from -- they didn't take the coward's way out of hiding behind anonymity while throwing incendiary bombs into the community discussion.
>>
>> Trolls, IMHO, are a completely different ball of wax.  My delete key works just fine, as do my bozo filters, but the problem as I see it is that virtually all other conversation gets lost when trolls are successful.  That, IMHO, is the real harm with trolls, not the time and energy anyone wastes dealing with their lies or keyboard vomit.  And, trolls *thrive* on every little crumb of attention they get, which is obvious from the current troll:  this current incarnation appeared on 9/24 and has already posted over 60 times.  When it doesn't get the desired reaction, it ups the ante until someone bites.  Thus, we feed its pathology, perhaps even contribute to its escalation, and give it far more attention than any anonymous coward not breaking the law is worth, IMHO.
>>
>> Here's an analogy.  I look at trolls as being similar in some ways to drug addicts.  The "fix" for trolls is attention and disruption.  When we supply them with their fix, we are in a real sense contributing to the pathology, are we not, in a way similar to the drug dealer?
>>
>> I wish the "monster spray" I successfully used for my daughter when she was a little girl worried about monsters in the closet or under her bed worked for trolls who thrive on taking over community discussions!
>>
>> Clearly, I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to saying what I think :-)  I just personally don't find it to be productive to engage with anonymous cowards whose goal is to disrupt community discussion with hate-mongering, and it makes me sad that valuable discussion gets crowded out or lost in the shuffle when trolls get their way.
>>
>> Of course, other than violent excision (which isn't always effective with unmoderated forums like the Viz because trolls change identities faster than a New York minute), there's no absolutely fool-proof way I'm aware of to deal with trolls.  We could all take the approach I prefer (don't feed the monster), and the troll could just keep upping the ante and upping the ante until we all abandoned this forum -- I've seen that happen elsewhere.  So, it's not like I think I have all the answers; rather, I just have a strategy I think works best ***for me***.
>>
>>
>> JMHO,
>> Saundra Lund
>> Moscow, ID
>>
>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.
>> ~ Edmund Burke
>>
>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: joekc at roadrunner.com [mailto:joekc at roadrunner.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 1:38 PM
>> To: Saundra Lund
>> Cc: 'Steven Basoa'; 'Vision 2020'; 'jeanlivingston'
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to my liberal friends [was ignore trolls]
>>
>> Respectfully, I disagree with the Steven/Bruce/Saundra strategy for several reasons.
>>
>> First, this is supposed to be an open forum. If folks don't like what I talk about, or how I
>> approach the troll problem, then press delete. We already have a solution to that problem!
>> Don't like it, don't read it. Pretty simple. The lectures are unnecessary.
>>
>> Second, I don't see how the suggestion that certain kinds of discussions should take place
>> is conducive to the Visions role as an open forum. It seems to me that suggestions like
>> this do nothing more than limit free speech. In the last few weeks, several people have
>> told me not only who I should talk to ("Don't talk to trolls!") but also what I should talk
>> about ("Don't talk about abortion!"). I don't see that as conducive to free speech and
>> ultimately it seems to harm the reputation of Vision 2020 as a truly open forum.
>>
>> Third, I'm a big boy. I know that some think that my problem is that I don't count to ten
>> but that is not right. I just disagree with the current progressive policy of ignoring certain
>> subjects and people. I think that ultimately the failure to confront issues like abortion, or
>> even to respond to the concerns of trolls, is a losing proposition. It is precisely why, even
>> after 8 years of a failed Republican presidency, a failed war in Iraq, and a failed
>> economy, we Democrats still stand a chance of losing the next election! We're not
>> talking about the things that people want to talk about and in some cases it is because we
>> don't know how. And we're not talking to the people (trolls, for instance) who talk to the
>> people who are talking about the things that we're not talking about. There is a very good
>> reason why the label of "elitist" sticks to progressives. The reason is we are.
>>
>> I understand that most of you see things differently. I'm not asking you to be like me, to
>> accept the view above (though if you want to discuss it in more detail, I'm ready to do
>> so). I'm just asking that you respect that I have the view. I don't want to be you, or
>> respond to the problems in the way that you are responding to them. That strikes me as a
>> failure. I want to be me because that is the way that seems right for me to be.
>>
>> I understand, too, that our notions of right action, our notions of civility, differ. I respect
>> your views I just disagree with them. For me, it if you want to be respectful be direct. If
>> you disagree with someone, tell them why. Don't talk about people, talk to them. I
>> understand that my approach has its drawbacks. Especially given that I will talk about
>> anything with anyone. But I want to talk about what I take to be real issues rather than
>> mere surface issues discussed in a "polite" way. I respect that others think differently and
>> in no way am I asking that all of you adopt my methods. Just respect them.
>>
>> That said, I have a few obligations with which I need to attend. The Vision is a luxury
>> and, frankly, it has become a rather unpleasant luxury of late. Anyway, don't take
>> offense at my absence and good luck!
>>
>> Best, Joe
>>
>
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