[Vision2020] OFFLIST An open letter to my liberal friends [was ignore trolls]

[joekc at roadrunner.com]

Dear Keely,

I don't feel comfortable with putting this on list right now.

I think that you and I are on board on most of these issues. Here is one difference
though. You write: "But there are times when I truly think that you've waded into a 
situation designed only to trip you up -- not to dialogue, but to demean."

I know all of this. Such is the cost of the path I've chosen. But, please, do not feel
bad for me. It is my own doing, a choice I've made. I'm an emotional man and 
people exploit that and I know that that is the price that I pay with engagement.
It still seems to me that engagement is worth the price. I'm not saying that it is 
worth it for everyone. But it is worth it for me and that is a choice I make. The fact
is, most of the people who have met me, like me. And most of the people who 
don't like me, have never met me. I've always had the approach to say to whomever 
whatever is on my mind and so far the strategy has served me well. I'm not dropping it.

If I wanted to be the same as others, I'd not have been a philosopher. My approach 
is my choice and in the end I'll be OK. I know that.

All the best, Joe

--
Joe Campbell

---- keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote: 
> 
> I'll presume that I'm one of Joe's "liberal friends" in this . . . 
> 
> Joe, you're certainly free to engage, as is any one of us, with whomever you want for as often and as long as you want.  I think you and anyone who recognizes my name would agree that I'm NOT of the "don't confront the bad stuff" strategy and, frankly, I've gone out on a limb not only to do so but to plead with liberal Moscow to not ignore the situation around us, and especially not in the name of "tolerance."  I hope that's clear.   Much of "progressive Moscow" lacks the foresight and the guts, not to mention the sense of urgency, that propels the kind of engagement with the Kirk that some of us participate in.   While some are fretting about the kinds of organic beef sold at the Co-Op and others decrying the sale of meat at all, a pernicious presence has taken root in Moscow and it's growing.  It has not only fruit, but roots.
> 
>  I wrestle, and wrestler harder than most people, against the things I think are evil precisely because I think it's important enough to get in the fight, get muddy, and try to hit the balance between getting in the fray with honesty and integrity, and getting into the fray only to exacerbate and accelerate it.
> 
> That said, I do have a problem with trolls who are engaging with Vision in the hope of making others run along after them.  I've made that mistake sometimes, when I've let others direct my agenda and the responses that reflect it; other times, I'll go as far as I feel is necessary, and I'll quite when it becomes not productive.  No one can decide that for me and no one can, or should, decide that for you.  But there are times when I truly think that you've waded into a situation designed only to trip you up -- not to dialogue, but to demean.  I don't like seeing you or anyone else demeaned, and especially not by cowards.  You are undeniably intelligent and far more educated than I, but I sometimes have thought that perhaps you've not prepared yourself for the foundational war at hand to the extent that it enables you to fight the battles as effectively as I know you want to.   What right do I have to say that?  None, really, other than my experiences in doing battle with the Kirk and the lessons learned from it.  
> 
> Nonetheless, Joe, you get to decide at every turn what you want to do and how you want to do it.  If it seems as though I've been less than eager to join in with you, it's because I generally prefer to stand on my own, by myself, condemned, cautioned, or congratulated for my own words and work.  
> 
> Keely
> http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:37:53 -0400
> > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
> > To: sslund_2007 at verizon.net
> > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to my liberal friends [was ignore trolls]
> > 
> > Respectfully, I disagree with the Steven/Bruce/Saundra strategy for several reasons.
> > 
> > First, this is supposed to be an open forum. If folks don’t like what I talk about, or how I 
> > approach the troll problem, then press delete. We already have a solution to that problem! 
> > Don’t like it, don’t read it. Pretty simple. The lectures are unnecessary.
> > 
> > Second, I don’t see how the suggestion that certain kinds of discussions should take place 
> > is conducive to the Visions role as an open forum. It seems to me that suggestions like 
> > this do nothing more than limit free speech. In the last few weeks, several people have 
> > told me not only who I should talk to (“Don’t talk to trolls!”) but also what I should talk 
> > about (“Don’t talk about abortion!”). I don’t see that as conducive to free speech and 
> > ultimately it seems to harm the reputation of Vision 2020 as a truly open forum.
> > 
> > Third, I’m a big boy. I know that some think that my problem is that I don’t count to ten 
> > but that is not right. I just disagree with the current progressive policy of ignoring certain 
> > subjects and people. I think that ultimately the failure to confront issues like abortion, or 
> > even to respond to the concerns of trolls, is a losing proposition. It is precisely why, even 
> > after 8 years of a failed Republican presidency, a failed war in Iraq, and a failed 
> > economy, we Democrats still stand a chance of losing the next election! We’re not 
> > talking about the things that people want to talk about and in some cases it is because we 
> > don’t know how. And we’re not talking to the people (trolls, for instance) who talk to the 
> > people who are talking about the things that we’re not talking about. There is a very good 
> > reason why the label of “elitist” sticks to progressives. The reason is we are.
> > 
> > I understand that most of you see things differently. I’m not asking you to be like me, to 
> > accept the view above (though if you want to discuss it in more detail, I’m ready to do 
> > so). I’m just asking that you respect that I have the view. I don’t want to be you, or 
> > respond to the problems in the way that you are responding to them. That strikes me as a 
> > failure. I want to be me because that is the way that seems right for me to be.
> > 
> > I understand, too, that our notions of right action, our notions of civility, differ. I respect 
> > your views I just disagree with them. For me, it if you want to be respectful be direct. If 
> > you disagree with someone, tell them why. Don’t talk about people, talk to them. I 
> > understand that my approach has its drawbacks. Especially given that I will talk about 
> > anything with anyone. But I want to talk about what I take to be real issues rather than 
> > mere surface issues discussed in a “polite” way. I respect that others think differently and 
> > in no way am I asking that all of you adopt my methods. Just respect them.
> > 
> > That said, I have a few obligations with which I need to attend. The Vision is a luxury
> > and, frankly, it has become a rather unpleasant luxury of late. Anyway, don't take 
> > offense at my absence and good luck!
> > 
> > Best, Joe
> > 
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