[Vision2020] Intoleristas (was Re: Who Dat?)

Sun Nov 23 16:40:41 PST 2008

I get a kick out Doug and Dale when they complain about egalitarianism and then when they find themselves on the short end of the stick, they complain about how it's so unfair that they're being mistreated.  Doug will write on his blog 'What's good for the goose is good for the gander'.  And he's exactly right except he saves that bit only for when he thinks he's getting short shrift and is completely blind to it for anyone else being treated unequally.  That's what happens to folks like Doug who lack empathy - they can't see beyond their own situation.  Same holds true for Dale when he objects to groups like the Mormons being boycotted because of in Dale's words 'simply how they voted (think prop8)'.  Of course it completely escapes Dale that the prop 8 vote eliminated rights previously granted to a minority group.  It seems perfectly logical to me that if group M mobilized and engages in actions that negatively affects group S, then group S and their supporters would counteract to engage in actions that negatively affects group S.  Dale would rather that Group S just give up and accept their role of second class citizen.  So...I challenge Dale and Doug to simply practice what they preach and when they think (even if they are mistaken) that they are being mistreated or targeted, they should simply just suck it up and accept their lot in life and understand that their (perceived) attackers are only acting in similar fashion that Dale and Doug think is perfectly fine.

Paul, I agree with your comments about corporations competing on a level playing field, but again that smacks of egalitarianism that Doug and Dale hate so much (again unless their on the disadvantages side of the situation.  

-Scott

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:18:52 -0800
From: starbliss at gmail.com
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Intoleristas (was Re: Who Dat?)

I am surprised that you were mentioned on Courtney's right-mind.us in the context of the so called local "Intoleristas."  Anyone following your comments on Vision2020 would know you have consistently objected to the extent of the critical focus on Christ Church and its associated businesses and schools.  They should regard you as a moderating influence on attacks against their church.  

However, I am not surprised at all that your comment on corporations and profit was taken out of context and its meaning distorted on Courtney's blog.  Several of my Vision2020 posts have ended up on Courtney's right-mind.us, with their meaning distorted and then criticised; and this has happened to numerous others who post to Vision2020.  As you roughly stated, you are being lumped in with the "leftists" or "liberals" on Vision2020, stereotyped for the sake of whatever controversial content you offer to jazz up Courtney's blog.

They "tend to paint with too broad a brush..." you wrote.  Tend?  They flat out do to the extreme, against those who simply defend a basic US Constitutional principle, the separation of church and state.  The fact your comment about Jesus and the presidency became fodder for Courtney's blog is a clear demonstration.  

Others on Vision2020 have explored the type of Theocracy advocated; thus a firm defense of a secular state and separation of church and state simply cannot stand.  This might explain to you why many are more critical of the point of view involved here than you apparently are.  However, sometimes the critics of Christ Church and its associated entities find conspiracy where none exists, it seems to me; and the personalized attacks are an approach I try to avoid on Vision2020.  

Of course, I am a total Pollyanna to expect personalized attacks to disappear from public discourse, for discussion to focus on ideas, reason and fact.  But faith in the improvability of humanity is an underlying assumption of liberalism, so perhaps my attempts to take the high ground in discussions via avoiding personal attacks reveals my Weltanschauung.  Conservatives are more likely to accept that inequality, poverty, war, greed, prejudice and hatred are embedded in humanity, so society should not, indeed cannot, engineer these realities out of existence.  The attempt is foolish, and can do more harm than good.  Liberals tend to believe in the Utopian ideals of a perfected humanity.  

I am inclined to agree with the conservative view on the nature of humanity, at least at this point in human history.  But our species is very very young; I think humanity, if we survive the impacts of our ignorance and destructive impulses, will eventually make heaven on Earth.  But if we cannot limit the destructive side of our nature, the future is bleak.  There is thus no other option but to try, even if futile.

Ted Moffett

On 11/23/08, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm kind of in the middle on the Intolerista thing.  I'm obviously far
more liberal than most members of Christ Church, assuming we are using

the common term and not whatever "classical liberal" term Dale was
speaking about.  However, I think they have a point in that there does
seem to be a large amount of intolerance towards that particular church

by many of those on this list.  I've raised my objections before, so I
won't really go into it here.  Granted, they are taking the term and
running with it because it makes for great sound bites.

I was a little miffed a while back to find out that one of my posts here

on the viz ended up on the "Intolerista Island" section of his blog.
Not miffed in a copyright sort of way, but miffed I was assumed to be a
card-carrying member.  The post, if I remember it right, was discussing

my assertion that corporations don't have a right to make a profit.
They, of course, loved the "sound bite" quality of that phrase and ran
with it.  However, I was miffed because I don't think of myself as an

Intolerista, because I disagree with those on this list about the amount
of rancor we should be tossing at that particular group.  I think we'd
be better off it we just accepted them freely into our community.

I do think they tend to paint with too broad a brush, and they like
sound bites too much, in a mean, schoolyard bully sort of way.  I have
given them at least two they seem to like (the one mentioned above and

"I'm not looking for a Jesus to be President" or something similar to that).

Btw, if Dale or Doug are reading this, I'd like to know what about that
particular random post they thought made me worthy of being included in

the Intolerista community.  Not that I really mind the association that
much, but I thought I was doing a better job of leaning towards the
middle in this particular area.  I assumed they were far more favorable

towards the idea of a free market than they apparently are.  My point
about corporations not having a right to make a profit was meant to
convey the idea that they should all compete on a level playing field,
and should not be lobbying to make special rules for them to survive

when they otherwise shouldn't.  Instead of gaming the system, they
should simply die off if they don't have the right qualities to be able
to make a profit.

Paul

keely emerinemix wrote:
> Do I detect the mellifluous dulcet tones of Dale Courtney?

>
> Keely
> http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com

> > From: thansen at moscow.com
> > Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:39:32 +0000
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Who Dat?
> >
> > Greetings Visionaires -

> >
> > On February 27, 2005 KUOI's own Tim Lohrmann aired a 90-minute taped
> > interview of a local individual concerning Moscow politics, taxes,
> > property rights, etc. etc.
> >

> > Linked below is a portion of that interview concerning the origin of
> the
> > term "Intoleristas".
> >
> > I could give you a hint as to who this individual is, but I am

> simply not
> > of the right mind to do so. So, I leave it to you fine people of the
> Viz
> > to answer the question . . .
> >
> > Who Dat?
> > http://www.tomandrodna.com/Sounds/Intoleristas_KUOI_022705.mp3

> >
> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >
> > Tom Hansen
> > Moscow, Idaho
> >
> >
> 
_________________________________________________________________
Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the “I’m a PC” Messenger themepack now.
hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20081123/32a9dfcc/attachment-0001.html 