[Vision2020] Rights, Guns, Abortion, Speech, and Death

Wed Nov 12 16:13:20 PST 2008

Scott,

I agree with you about the difference between the issue of abortion and
death with dignity. I don't think that there is a right to suicide and I
don't think that one could justify suicide by appeal to the right to
privacy. Here are two questions that might help us to see the
difference:

1/Is it solely a person's decision whether or not to give birth (if
pregnant)?

2/Is it solely a person's decision when and how to die (if living)?

I think the answer to (1) is "In general, yes; the pregnant woman has
the sole decision" but the answer to (2) is "No." (If I understand your
initial post to me on this subject, you would strike the "In general" in
the first answer!) 

Note, too, that on the issue of abortion I agree, more or less, with Roe
v. Wade: Once the fetus reaches viability, it is no longer just the
mother who can decide (that is why I say "In general ..." in answer to
(1)). Once the fetus reaches the point of viability the state has some
say in what happens, as I see it. Anyone who commits suicide, though, is
well beyond viability! So there is no inconsistency here. We are social
beings, our lives are interconnected with others, and with those
connections come obligations that complicate the matter. 

Here is another way to put the point. If a single mother wants to have
an abortion within the first trimester does she owe anyone an
explanation? I think not. (Again, you might extend this to the end of
pregnancy.) If she wanted to kill herself does she owe anyone an
explanation? I think she does. Suicide is not a private decision. "No
man (or woman) is an island."

Lastly, in general, I agree with what you say in the second paragraph
below, too. There might be other ways to establish death with dignity,
other than via the right to privacy. Certainly were I terminally ill and
faced with nothing but a short life of pain, I'd like to have a choice.
My Catholic upbringing would likely dictate what I would choose but, in
general, it would be nice if people had the choice. But setting this up
in a safe way that prevents abuse is difficult and I have nothing
enlightening to add to the debate. 

In general, I'm a legal minimalist: the fewer laws the better. Laws
should only be established in cases of clear harms to clear persons.
Otherwise we should be allowed to do as we please.

Best, Joe

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Scott Dredge
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 10:51 PM
To: vpschwaller at gmail.com; viz
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rights, Guns, Abortion, Speech, and Death

I know this is address to Dr. Campbell, but I'll chime in anyway with my
2 cents.  I don't believe that 'right to privacy' is the proper way to
go after the 'death with dignity' issue.  In certain cases privacy would
be a conflict of interest as the case where 2 brothers plot to kill
their parents under the guise of 'death with dignity' so they can
inherit the family jewelry store to solve their current financial
crisises before immediately getting into new ones.  BTW, have you all
seen the movie 'Before the Devil Knows You're Dead' starring Ethan
Hawke, Marisa Tomei, and Albert Finney about 2 brothers who come up with
an ill-conceived idea to rob their parent's jewelry store?  I don't
recommend it since it gave me nightmares for this first time since I
watched 'Open Water' the nightmarish movie Carl Westberg recommended.

'Death with Dignity' should just be argued for and against on some other
grounds.  Pick something else other than 'right to privacy'...maybe
avoiding excruciating pain in the last 6 months of a terminal condition.
Although I think there are already loopholes in the law that allow this.
One of my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend had some rare spinal cancer about 15
years ago and when his 6'4" frame became emaciated to the point where he
looked like a 60 pound Auschwitz victim, his doctors gave him a very
high dose of morphine targeted to suppress his pain and one of the side
effects was that this dosage was that it killed him within 48 hours
(this was according to one of our other friends so I can't vouch for the
accuracy / legality of this approach).  Personally, I think it would
have been more humane to administer this treatment (if guaranteed
effective) a little earlier before wasting away to skin and bones,
constantly throwing up bile, being forced to endure months of the worst
case of dry mouth anyone can ever imagine, etc.  Maybe there are
hard-to-imagine worse cases than this that could be used in favor of
shaping 'death with dignity' laws.  And once again, you need to somehow
maneuver through the crowd of Bible thumpers although every single one
of them who fought to prevent Terri Schiavo's feeding tube from being
removed, all said 'she's in a far better place' after she died / was
murdered. 

-Scott

________________________________

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:10:37 -0800
From: vpschwaller at gmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Rights, Guns, Abortion, Speech, and Death

Dr. Campbell - so taking this one more step, should and would these
"rights" be extended to those who choose death with dignity?  Does not
the right to privacy similarly ground the "right" to choose the timing
of one's death as well?

Thank you for your reply

GS

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Campbell, Joseph <josephc at wsu.edu>
wrote:

Scott,

I've been reading your posts lately about the possible threat to the 2nd
amendment given the recent Obama election and, although I find your
thoughts and arguments interesting, I am in firm disagreement with your
view. So I'd like to say what I think about the issues. I've made these
points before but I don't think I've made them all to you.

First, you mention a lack of consistency between liberal views on
abortion rights and liberal views on gun rights. Some of the confusion
may be settled if, instead of talking about abortion "rights," we talked
about the right to privacy, the right upon which the "right" to abortion
is founded. Granted the right to privacy is not an explicit right, not
explicitly noted in the bill of rights, for instance. But the argument
is that several of those rights would make no sense were there not a
prior right to privacy. We could talk about whether this argument is
good or bad at a later point but for now let's just assume that there is
a right to privacy that grounds the "right" to abortion.

No one thinks that we have an absolute right to privacy, one that should
not be infringed under any circumstance. In a court of law, for
instance, a lawyer might ask a defendant questions about his private
life that might be deemed inappropriate under normal circumstances. Yet
the defendant cannot, or cannot always, refuse to answer on the basis of
his right to privacy. A search warrant allows police to investigate the
drawers containing your undergarments. Similar examples abound.

Consider next the right to free speech. That right is not absolute
either. I do not have the right to slander you, to libel you, to tell
lies about you, or even (I would say) to insult you. I have a right to
speak freely and in so doing I might insult you but that does not mean
that I have a right to insult you. I looked up 'human rights' in an
on-line dictionary and got: "The basic rights and freedoms to which all
humans are entitled, often held to include the right to life and
liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the
law." I am entitled to speak freely but I'm not entitled to insult you.
Still, in an effort to ensure the former we might have to put up with
the instances of the latter.

I would say the same about the "right" to abortion, which I would not
call a right at all. I have a right to privacy and what that ensures is
that the government cannot tell me when I should and when I should not
have a child. That is my decision. Provisions should be made that allow
me to make that decision on my own, without government intrusion. That
gives me limited access to abortion. The "right" to abortion is founded
on the right to privacy, and since no one thinks that the right to
privacy is unrestricted, no one should be in favor of unrestricted
abortion "rights," though as in the case of free speech the initial
right may be important enough to allow for behaviors that others would
deem offensive. Such is the price of freedom.

It is no mystery when rights should be restricted, for no one has the
right to deprive another of his right. My right to free speech cannot
restrict your right to privacy, so restrictions against, say, my
broadcasting your home address and phone number are appropriate. In
general, when my acts are likely to lead to harm to other persons, the
law may intervene. My rights go only so far. What counts as a harm? What
counts as a person? These questions complicate the matter but clear
answers in each case abound, and in those clear cases laws may be made
restricting certain behaviors, behaviors that would otherwise be
protected.

Thus, your view on gun rights seems to be far more extreme than what I
take to be the liberal view on abortion and speech and rights in
general. In the latter cases, we recognize restrictions all the time. In
fact, there are many restrictions to speech and abortion that are
already imbedded in the law. Few liberals want to do away with laws
against slander or laws against third trimester abortion since in those
cases the harms are clear. (In the latter case, I am not talking about
the harm to the fetus, I'm talking about the harm to society in general,
which might override the woman's right to what goes on in her own body
once the fetus has passed the point of viability. That is how I
understand Roe v. Wade.)

Someone above - I can't remember if it was you or Dan or someone else -
talked about the right to bear arms extending to hunters and gun
collectors, as if we had rights to hunt or rights to collect as many and
as diverse a collection of toys as we individually deemed fit; that the
second amendment protected the collection of any gun by any person for
whatever reason. That is like saying that because I have a right to
privacy I'd have a right to your house were that the place that I felt
most private. The second amendment says nothing about hunting or
collecting. Nothing at all, for there are no such rights: not in the
bill of rights, not in heaven, not on earth. These are privileges at
most, not rights.

Nor is our right to bear arms unrestricted, as you seem to suggest. If
it were, why not allow citizens to obtain nuclear arms? The reason is
that the chance for abuse and harm is great. The implication is that in
such cases, the restriction of arms is justified. To think that nuclear
arms offer the only such case is absurd. Ergo, there is no unrestricted
right to bear arms. That is a myth.

I understand that Americans have a fascination with guns, just as they
have a fascination with privacy and with speech, and given those
fascinations a tolerance for pushing the bounds of those rights should
be respected by all parties: conservatives should appreciate the attempt
from liberals to push the boundaries of our rights to privacy and free
speech, and liberals should appreciate the attempt from conservatives to
push the boundaries of our rights to guns and free speech. (It seems
that free speech is a right of which we all agree, though how that right
should be manifested is something about which we don't always agree.)
Toward that end, I'll try to be more respectful of your attempts to keep
your toys. But not to the extent of affording easy access to nutcases
like the Moscow and Virginia Tech murderers. Clearly there is a problem
with current gun laws but one that we should be able to solve without
infringing on your right to protect yourself, or even your "right" to
have a little fun!

Best,
Joe Campbell

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