[Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15

Fri May 16 20:31:24 PDT 2008

Dear Donovan,

At first when I read this, I thought that you still failed to answer the question.

But then I realized that you are Catholic, and here you are saying that any 
form of the death penalty is murder, right?

So now I ask, Why not call out those in favor of the death penalty in the same
way that you call out folks like me who are pro-choice (even though I am
both against abortion and against the death-penalty, for reasons like you,
I suppose)? Why not call them murderers, and anti-Christian?

Well, I know the answer to that! Let's put it this way: I dare you to say that
anyone who accepts the death-penalty is anti-Christian. You won't do it!

There are complicated issues here and you oversimplify them to your political
advantage. Shame on you!

Best, Joe

PS Did you really say that I was a coward because I won't kill myself, as Nick
notes? If so, I missed it but, dear God, I hope you didn't say that!

---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: 

=============
Joe,

  Ok, I will entertain your conspiracy theory. 

  I think anyone that attempts to kill, or tries to persuade someone to commit murder, for any reason, is mentally unstable, yes.

  Best Regards,

  Donovan

Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
  I know that few people care about this -- to those please delete! -- but I want
to come back to "Donovan's" intentional confusion here. The answer to the 
third question given below is not an answer to the question that I asked. It is 
an explanation of why someone who thinks that sinners deserve death is not 
a sick individual. But I didn't ask that. I might have but I didn't.

What I asked Donovan to explain is whether or not someone who thinks that 
the specific sin of gay sex warrants the death penalty is a sick individual. 

Suppose someone -- call him "Chris" -- thinks that anyone who engages in 
gay sex deserves to be put to death as a form of punishment. Wouldn't Chris, 
in your opinion, Donovan, be a sick individual?

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold wrote: 

=============
Do you think that gays deserve the death penalty?

Don't you think that this is a sick and crazy view?

Don't you think that someone who believes this is a sick individual?

Nope, not anymore than anyone else.

Nope, it isn't a crazy view, or should I say it is not a crazy view.

It depends on if they are speaking in religious figurative terms; For example, all sinners deserve death, or if they really are advocating the murder of self professed homosexuals. Obviously, anyone that is advocating the actual murder of someone is not mentally balanced. Someone that says, "Sinners deserve death" to illustrate none of us that offend God deserve life, I think is just illustrating a religious/spiritual viewpoint.

Best Regards,

Donovan

Joe Campbell wrote:
Do you think that gays deserve the death penalty?

Don't you think that this is a sick and crazy view?

Don't you think that someone who believes this is a sick individual?

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold wrote: 

=============
Joe,

Stay away from the Kool-Aid. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

Joe Campbell wrote:
Notice the lengthy pause after a day of rapid fire responses.

They're trying to figure out what to say. Will it be:

a. "Joe [the logician] is illogical." 

b. "Joe's been eating backed goods."

c. "I suppose Joe wants to punch me in the nose now."

d. "We don't have to believe you since you, Joe, are not a Christian. 
At least not in my [narrow] book"

Or:

e. "Look, I already told you that I sin every day!"

Please cast your votes!

--
Joe Campbell

---- Tom Hansen wrote: 

=============
No problem, Joe. As they say in New York . . . Fuhgeddaboutit. I have. Besides, you have very nicely "outed" the Arnold-wannabe. Still the question remains: Who is playing Arnold today? Tom

> Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 18:36:51 -0700> From: joekc at adelphia.net> To: joekc at adelphia.net> CC: idahotom at hotmail.com; vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net; donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15> > I hope it is clear that I intended this as a joke! This is Aristotle's > understanding of "syllogism" but most folks (outside of logicians) in the > modern world take "syllogism" to mean "argument." Given standard > contemporary usage, Tom was correct!> > --> Joe Campbell> > ---- Joe Campbell wrote: > > =============> Sorry, Tom.> > A syllogism is a two-premise argument. The argument below has only one > premise, so it is not a syllogism.> > That concludes today's logic lesson!> > --> Joe Campbell> > ---- Tom Hansen wrote: > > =============> Exactly, Andreas.> > Analogous to Arnold's (aka Doudalchri Wilcourwit) logic is the following syllogism> > One guaranteed way to reduce the number of criminals to ABSOLUTE ZERO is to eliminate ALL laws.> >
No laws. No crimes.> No crimes. No criminals.> > Result: A total crime-free society. Just don't go outside.> > Seeya round town, Moscow.> > Tom Hansen> Moscow, Idaho> > > > > Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:28:38 -0700> From: ophite at gmail.com> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> CC: vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15> > Donovan --> > Wait. You're saying that discrimination exists because we refuse to ignore it?> > Sure. Okay.> > -- ACS> > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 12:19 AM, Donovan Arnold> wrote:> > Mo,> >> > I agree that discrimination still exists. But I think the reason why the US,> > unlike other western nations, has not moved past these hang ups is precisely> > because of the tactics used to try and end it.> >> > When we tell people they are wrong or should feel guilty because they are> > White, heterosexual, christian, non-disabled, male, etc, you quickly turn> > off the majority of people you are trying to convert.> >> > If we
just hire, fire, include people based on merit, we would end> > discrimination quickly.> >> > Best Regards,> >> > Donovan> >> > Mo Hendrickson !> wrote:> >> > It shouldn't matter, but unfortunately in our society, racism, sexism,> > classism, religious choice, sexual orientation, gender preference,> > disability, on and on and on, are still factors in discrimination. We do> > not live in a color blind/gender blind etc society and until we do we need> > to make sure that people from under represented groups are at the table and> > part of the conversation, even if we may not agree with what they are> > saying. It is important that we realize the inherent worth in all people> > for what they have to contribute to the betterment of our nation and world.> >> > I believe that Sue's original point was that this is a community event and> > at her first glance she did not see a woman on the panel. An event that is> > trying to reach beyond faith lines should have a diverse panel.
I am very> > glad to see that it does, and I would imagine that there is plenty of> > diversity on the panel beyond t!> he gender and race of those that are> > represented. We all should be > trying to make spaces for diversity to enter> > into the conversation so that one day we won't need to rely on those> > categories.> >> >> > -Mo> >> > ________________________________> > Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:26:46 -0700> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> > To: suehovey at moscow.com; mhamilto at vetmed.wsu.edu; kjajmix1 at msn.com;> > london at moscow.com; vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15> >> > Why are some people so obsessed with a person's gender, race, religion, and> > sexual orientation? Does it matter?> >> > Best Regards,> >> > Donovan> >> > Sue Hovey wrote:> >> > Now I really stand corrected. Thanks so much.> >> > Sue> >> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: Hamilton, Mary Jo> > To: Sue Hovey ; keely emerinemix ; Bill London
; vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:08 AM> > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15> > Chris Vaughn, representing the Bahai com!> munity, is also a woman.> >> > Mary Jo> >> > -----Original Message-----> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]> > On Behalf Of Sue Hovey> > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:08 AM> > To: keely emerinemix; Bill London; vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15> >> > OOPS. I didn't see Kayle's name. Sorry for the comment. But even so, 1 of> > 8 isn't all that representative. Trinity Baptist, where I used to> > attend has never chosen to involve itself in any local Interfaith> > efforts. The congregation perceives that kind of involvement as a dilution> > of Baptist tenets.> >> > Sue> >> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: keely emerinemix> > To: Sue Hovey ; Bill London ; vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> > Sent: Tuesday, May
13, 2008 9:51 AM> > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15> > Kayle Rice is the female pastor of the UU . . . what saddens me, though, is> > the decision of c!> onservative Christian churches to not involve themselves in> > this.> > >> > Keely> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________> > From: suehovey at moscow.com> > To: london at moscow.com; vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> > Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:34:04 -0700> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15> >> > It looks interesting--too bad, though, women on the Palouse must be thought> > not to have any thoughts that would be valued in this setting.> >> > Sue Hovey> >> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: Bill London> > To: vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 6:01 PM> > Subject: [Vision2020] Interfaith Panel Thurs. May 15> >> >> > There will be a panel discussion this coming Thursday, May 15 7pm -9pm at> > the 1912 Center in Moscow> >> > Subject: Promoting Peace and
Harmony on the Palouse/ Spritiual Approches> > from Interfaith Perspectives> >> > Not only is this an important subject, it is the first interfaith panel we> > have had in a long time - and I hope you will come to learn and to support> > this effort. C!> ome and bring your friends.> >> > Speakers: Rev. Kayle Rice, Unitarian Universalist Church of the Palouse> > (Moderator)> > Sayed Daoud, Pullman Islamic Center> > Lawrence Fox, Jewish Community of the Palouse> > Nicholas Gier, Prof Emeritus Philosophy, UI and Unitarian Church> > Walter Hesford, Prof. of English, UI and Emanuel Lutheran Church> > Ryder Stevens, US Army Chaplain, Christian Science Lecturer> > Chris Vaughn, Bahai, Community> >> > Summary by: Fr. Bill Taylor, St. Augustine Center, Moscow> >> > Questions/comments will be accepted from the floor> > Refreshments will be served> >> > Sponsored by: The Common Ministry WSU, Christian Science Society of> > Moscow-Pullman, Pullman Islamic Center, Unitarian
Universalist Church of the> > Palouse> >> >> >> > ________________________________> > =======================================================> > List services made available by First Step Internet,> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.> > http://www.f!> sr.net> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> > ============================> ===========================> >> > ________________________________> > Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. Start> > sharing.> >> > =======================================================> > List services made available by First Step Internet,> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.> > http://www.fsr.net> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> > =======================================================> >> >> >> > =======================================================> > List services made available by First Step Internet,> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.> > http://www.fsr.net> >
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> > =======================================================> >> > =======================================================> List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> ======================================!> =================> > =======================================================> List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> =======================================================> > =======================================================> List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> =======================================================