[Vision2020] Food/gas prices
Tom Hansen
thansen at moscow.com
Mon Mar 31 19:50:12 PDT 2008
I have one word to say:
EMBARGO!
That always seems to work.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
> Joe
> I don't know if trade with China will improve their human rights record
or not, But a
boycott of their products for sure wont. The main thing we need to ensure
is that products
from China are safe. We should also pressure them to improve human rights
at the same
time.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Joe Campbell joekc at adelphia.net
> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:05:18 -0700
> To: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Food/gas prices
>
> > Donovan,
> >
> > I drew the same conclusions as Sunil. There is nothing about the
quoted passage below
that indicates the view you now claim to have expressed.
> >
> > For the record, in general I favor neither boycotts nor embargoes. But
then again, I'm
not a member of the far left! I favor putting pressure on Walmart and
Walmart shoppers,
making them realize that low cost at the expense of human rights is not a
good thing. This
is just offering some critical comments about a particular business
practice -- using
cheap labor from countries that don't respect human rights. It is not a
boycott, not an
embargo, and not the endorsement of either.
> >
> > And for those like you and Roger who keep suggesting that somehow
China is going to
improve their human rights record just because folks like Walmart continue
to buy from
them, my question is: Why on earth should I believe that? What evidence is
there to
suggest that this is true?
> >
> > Best, Joe
> >
> > ---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Ted,
> >
> > I never made the claim that the Cuban embargo was supported by
leftists! Sunil twisted
my words. I said embargoes don't work, and was using Cuba and Iraq as an
example of past
embargoes failing to accomplish their intended goal.
> >
> > "What many far leftists don't understand is that embargoes didn't
help the people in
Cuba, or in Iraq, nor will they help the people of China."
> >
> > My claim was that far-lefts want to boycott China. Which they do.
That is why a
significant group of far-leftists advocate not buying from China or Wal-
Mart.
> >
> > Embargoes don't work, they don't hurt the people you intend them to
hurt. Regardless
of which political affiliation the people are that are implementing it.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sunil et. al.
> >
> > Political stereotyping is out of control, distorts our perceptions
of political and
economic reality, and will continue to do so, as certain as death and
taxes. Thus it is
refreshing to read that you correct the claim that the embargo on Cuba is
supported by
"far leftists."
> >
> > Of course we can look to buy goods made elsewhere than China. How
about "Made In
USA?"
> >
> > Ted Moffett
> >
> >
> > On 3/27/08, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote: It's not
'far-leftists' supporting the embargo on Cuba. I certainly preferred the
embargo on Iraq
to war, since those appeared to be the only alternatives. I don't think
we should embargo
China either, though we can certainly look to buy goods made elsewhere
should we choose.
> >
> > Sunil
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:26:29 -0700
> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > To: lfalen at turbonet.com; garrettmc at verizon.net;
vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Food/gas prices
> >
> > Roger,
> >
> > I think you are 100% correct here. What many far leftists don't
understand is that
embargoes didn't help the people in Cuba, or in Iraq, nor will they help
the people of
China.
> >
> > I would love to find a company that had bio-diesel available.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> > lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> > There was a small biodiesiel operator in Genesee for about a year.
He was using used
vegetable oil. He has filed for bankruptcy. One was proposed at the port
of Wilma. That
plan has been withdrawn, but I think a different company is looking at it,
I don't know
where the closest plant in operation is. Biocke Bros. at Kendrick are
working with Canola
as an energy source.
> > On trade with China I think it is a plus and hopefully will speed
their attention to
human rights. We should however, improve the inspection and regulation of
incoming good to
prevent the kind of problems that have ocured the last couple of years.
> > The embargo on Cuba has not improved any thing there and has probably
made it worse.
Trade has a better chance of working than embargoes. Keep the pressure on
in regard to
human right and inspections but still trade.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:18:21 -0700
> > To: Garrett Clevenger garrettmc at verizon.net, vision 2020
vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Food/gas prices
> >
> > > Garrett,
> > >
> > > I am afraid that I don't see economics the same way you do.
> > > I think Wal-Mart increases the quality of life for people in China,
and here at home.
I think the reason that so many Chinese people compete for jobs at
factories that contract
with Wal-Mart is because they are better than the other jobs in China.
> > >
> > > A factory worker in China lives higher on the economic scale in his
country than I do
in mine. A factory workers in China gets $300-$400 a month, plus there
housing and medical
care are provided. $300 in China, will buy a lot more than it will here.
Add to this fact
that they don't own automobiles, and your life is comparatively better
than the average
Chinese person.
> > >
> > > A good reason why China has such poor human conditions has to do
more with their
overpopulation and lack of resources to provide for them all than it has
to do with
willful human rights and environmental abuses.
> > >
> > > The United States had just as bad of a human rights record just as
little as a 100
years when we were in our industrialization age. We had children working
in coal mines. We
had women working in inhuman and unsafe working conditions. We denied
people jobs on the
basis of gender, age, disability, race, and religion. We are only better
because we grew
wealthy and were able to slowly change the working conditions one issue at
a time.
> > >
> > > I think China will eventually get there. But if we all stop buying
from them, they
will take longer to get there. It costs money to update and make all
factories safer for
workers, the only way they get that money is through the labor of its
workers and landing
big US contracts.
> > >
> > > I believe, if you wanted to help the US workforce, both in wages,
and working
conditions, you would start by shutting down companies that employ illegal
immigrants. We
need to lead by changing our own working conditions first.
> > >
> > > The reason why oil prices are high is because environmentalism will
not allow us to
drill here at home. If we could drill off our own shores, maybe drill for
oil in Mexico
and provide jobs there, we could drive down prices. I think we should also
look to the
long term and start finding alternative sources of energy, in a very
serious way.
> > >
> > >
> > > On a side note, can you tell me where the closest biodiesiel
refinery plants are
located? Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Donovan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Garrett Clevenger wrote:
> > > Donovan writes:
> > >
> > > "This is why you need a Wal-Mart Super Center in
> > > Moscow, the competition keeps the prices low."
> > >
> > > Donovan,
> > >
> > > I wonder, do you not see the problem Wal-Mart poses to
> > > not only our local economy, but of the unsustainable,
> > > and exploitative, nature of Wal-Mart's leverage?
> > >
> > > I ask this because I assume you would have a problem
> > > with the ethics of a company that seems to violate
> > > moral reasoning, such as exploitation of workers in
> > > China who, no matter how deserving of earning money to
> > > live, are still treated as expendable.
> > >
> > > These Chinese companies Wal-Mart purchases from, on
> > > top of competing with American companies, do not have
> > > to follow the same environmental, labor or other
> > > regulations that the US makes American companies
> > > follow, so are thus at an unfair competitive advantage
> > > as they dump their wastes into their rivers, and send
> > > their pollutants into the air that the US Park Service
> > > is now able to sample in our National Parks.
> > >
> > > How many poisoned products do we have to import before
> > > you say this isn't right?
> > >
> > > How many small businesses that go under because they
> > > can't compete with the buying power of Wal-Mart do you
> > > think is acceptable?
> > >
> > > Will you recognize that Wal-Mart is a major instigator
> > > of Chinese trade, and thus our trade deficit? That
> > > the Wal-Mart/China relationship is a major factor in
> > > the down-turn in the US economy? After all, it's
> > > reported that China is holding $1.5 trillion of our
> > > dept, a lot of it for the Iraq War, which has caused
> > > oil prices to increase as you recognize. The hundreds
> > > of billions of dollars Wal-Mart spends in China on
> > > cheap goods is now being lent back to us to support
> > > the war machine. Kind of ironic, I think.
> > >
> > > It seems if we focused more on our local economy, and
> > > limited the amount of foreign made products we could
> > > be providing for ourselves, we would in the long run
> > > be keeping prices low. After all, as fuel prices
> > > continue to escalate, we are only going to find how
> > > important it is to reduce transportation costs. What
> > > better time to start that than now?
> > >
> > > I believe in the long run Hawkins, and Super Wal-Mart,
> > > will be more of an expensive burden on Moscow than if
> > > we were to start using those resources to build our
> > > local economy in a more sustainable way, rather than
> > > subsidizing the wealth of China.
> > >
> > > gclev
> > >
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