[Vision2020] Food/gas prices

Thu Mar 27 01:16:20 PDT 2008

Donovan,

The issue is -- IMHO -- human rights, and whether we want to obtain cheap products at the cost of dealing with countries that have no respect for human rights. Do you think China will improve because Walmart is doing business with them? I agree that I won't have much sway either but do you really think that Walmart is buying products made in China because they think that they might influence China's record on human rights? Or do you think that they are buying products in China because they are cheap -- which is just the same reason why we're all buying products from Walmart. I don't think that saving money has a good track record when it comes to improving human rights.

I'm sorry but I take the words of our founding fathers to heart. I'm not saying that folks who shop at Walmart are evil -- heck, I shopped there tonight since I couldn't find the product I needed anywhere else. I'm just saying that if we live by the ideals of our forefathers we should struggle to find a better way.

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: 

=============
Joe,

  I don't think things in China are better then here. I think China would be much better if you moved there. No doubt you could go there and improve human rights conditions better than Wal-Mart can. (I am just trying to point out how pointless Joe's post was).

  Best Regards,

  Donovan

Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
  Donovan,

To use one of your lines: if you think things are better in China, then move there! (I don't think you should move there. I'm just trying to point out how absurd this post is.)

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold wrote: 

=============
Garrett,

I am afraid that I don't see economics the same way you do. 
I think Wal-Mart increases the quality of life for people in China, and here at home. I think the reason that so many Chinese people compete for jobs at factories that contract with Wal-Mart is because they are better than the other jobs in China.

A factory worker in China lives higher on the economic scale in his country than I do in mine. A factory workers in China gets $300-$400 a month, plus there housing and medical care are provided. $300 in China, will buy a lot more than it will here. Add to this fact that they don't own automobiles, and your life is comparatively better than the average Chinese person. 

A good reason why China has such poor human conditions has to do more with their overpopulation and lack of resources to provide for them all than it has to do with willful human rights and environmental abuses. 

The United States had just as bad of a human rights record just as little as a 100 years when we were in our industrialization age. We had children working in coal mines. We had women working in inhuman and unsafe working conditions. We denied people jobs on the basis of gender, age, disability, race, and religion. We are only better because we grew wealthy and were able to slowly change the working conditions one issue at a time.

I think China will eventually get there. But if we all stop buying from them, they will take longer to get there. It costs money to update and make all factories safer for workers, the only way they get that money is through the labor of its workers and landing big US contracts. 

I believe, if you wanted to help the US workforce, both in wages, and working conditions, you would start by shutting down companies that employ illegal immigrants. We need to lead by changing our own working conditions first. 

The reason why oil prices are high is because environmentalism will not allow us to drill here at home. If we could drill off our own shores, maybe drill for oil in Mexico and provide jobs there, we could drive down prices. I think we should also look to the long term and start finding alternative sources of energy, in a very serious way.

On a side note, can you tell me where the closest biodiesiel refinery plants are located? Thanks.

Best Regards,

Donovan 

Garrett Clevenger wrote:
Donovan writes:

"This is why you need a Wal-Mart Super Center in
Moscow, the competition keeps the prices low."

Donovan,

I wonder, do you not see the problem Wal-Mart poses to
not only our local economy, but of the unsustainable,
and exploitative, nature of Wal-Mart's leverage? 

I ask this because I assume you would have a problem
with the ethics of a company that seems to violate
moral reasoning, such as exploitation of workers in
China who, no matter how deserving of earning money to
live, are still treated as expendable. 

These Chinese companies Wal-Mart purchases from, on
top of competing with American companies, do not have
to follow the same environmental, labor or other
regulations that the US makes American companies
follow, so are thus at an unfair competitive advantage
as they dump their wastes into their rivers, and send
their pollutants into the air that the US Park Service
is now able to sample in our National Parks.

How many poisoned products do we have to import before
you say this isn't right? 

How many small businesses that go under because they
can't compete with the buying power of Wal-Mart do you
think is acceptable?

Will you recognize that Wal-Mart is a major instigator
of Chinese trade, and thus our trade deficit? That
the Wal-Mart/China relationship is a major factor in
the down-turn in the US economy? After all, it's
reported that China is holding $1.5 trillion of our
dept, a lot of it for the Iraq War, which has caused
oil prices to increase as you recognize. The hundreds
of billions of dollars Wal-Mart spends in China on
cheap goods is now being lent back to us to support
the war machine. Kind of ironic, I think.

It seems if we focused more on our local economy, and
limited the amount of foreign made products we could
be providing for ourselves, we would in the long run
be keeping prices low. After all, as fuel prices
continue to escalate, we are only going to find how
important it is to reduce transportation costs. What
better time to start that than now?

I believe in the long run Hawkins, and Super Wal-Mart,
will be more of an expensive burden on Moscow than if
we were to start using those resources to build our
local economy in a more sustainable way, rather than
subsidizing the wealth of China.

gclev

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