[Vision2020] Smart Growth/ was Recall the city council

[Garrett Clevenger]

g may think all subsidies are good.  I have nothing
against subsidies per se.  My point is we should be
wise with how we are subsidizing things.  I don't
think subsidizing another county, in a another state,
is a good thing in this case considering what we are
getting back.  My post, I thought, was pretty clear I
was talking about Whitman County being subsidized, not
Hawkins, though Hawkins will profit from it.  g's
extrapolation may give us cause to appreciate how much
of our lives are subsidized, but it has little bearing
on the cost to Moscow if it subsidizes Whitman County.

I think public investment in public transportation is
wise for it reduces the number of cars on the road,
thus wear and tear, and reduces greenhouse gasses. I'm
not sure how much tax money actually goes towards
Wheatland Express as it is funded by user fees by both
Universities.  Students pay a fee with their tuition,
and faculty and staff (myself) pay $1 per each one way
trip.  Non-university affiliated people pay $2 each
way.  So I'm not sure this bus is as subsidized as g
may think.

As far as food goes, I think it is actually cheaper to
grow your own.  Obviously it is extremely difficult to
feed yourself solely on homegrown, but the food you
can grow for yourself more than likely will be
cheaper, tastier, fresher and all around more
nutritious.  So if you have the time to enjoy being in
a garden, I encourage people to do so.

gclev

--- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> It would seem to me that if your subsidy argument is
> to hold water you would have to admit to the fact
> that your own life is subsidized in nearly every
> possible way.
> 
> It's cheaper and more convenient for you to go to
> Wal-Mart and buy your clothes then it is to grow
> cotton and raise wool and sew your own.
> 
> It's cheaper and more convenient to buy your
> gasoline from a local retailer then to drill and
> refine your own.
> 
> It's cheaper and more convenient to purchase food
> from the local grocer then it is for you to raise
> your own.
> 
> Did you build your own house? Grow the trees? Mill
> the lumber? I guess you have been subsidized by
> Logging company's and carpenters.
> 
> Do you generate your own electricity or does Avista
> subsidize your power and heat?
> 
> Just because it's less expensive in the short term
> for Hawkins to purchase water and sewer services
> from Moscow doesn't mean that they are being
> subsidized by Idaho taxpayers. Infrastructure and
> future upgrades are paid for through the fees that
> are paid by the users not taxes. Consequently,
> Hawkins WILL be paying its share. No giveaway
> anywhere along the line that I can detect unless
> it's the daily bus ride you talk about. Now there is
> a true subsidy. Strangely, you seem to be cool with
> that particular handout. What's up with that?
> 
> g
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:16 AM
> Subject: [Vision2020] Smart Growth/ was Recall the
> city council
> 
> 
> >g writes:
> > 
> > "I know the tactic is to repeat the lie so often
> it
> > becomes accepted fact but, Moscow is, in fact,
> > subsidizing nothing."
> > 
> > 
> > I would say g is perpetuating a lie, or at least
> > misinformation as I think in order to lie you have
> to
> > be aware you are wrong, because, in fact, Moscow
> is
> > subsidizing something.  
> > 
> > By providing water and sewer services, Moscow is
> > saving Hawkins $4 million in development costs
> that
> > would be needed to build infrastructure to receive
> > water and dispose of sewer.  Whitman County agreed
> to
> > fund a $10 million dollar bond to build that
> > infrastructure and more.  Now Whitman County will
> save
> > $4 million by not having to pay to build the water
> and
> > sewer infrastructure.  I would say Moscow is
> > subsidizing Whitman County's growth, if not
> > necessarily Hawkins itself, because our
> > infrastructure, something paid for by Moscow tax
> and
> > rate payers, will now be stretched further, and
> > perhaps need upgrades sooner, if Hawkins uses
> Moscow's
> > water and sewer services.  
> > 
> > Whitman County, as far as I can tell, is not
> agreeing
> > to give Moscow anything.  Usually subsidies expect
> > something in return, so perhaps this isn't a
> strict
> > subsidy, but a give away.
> > 
> > Am I wrong in thinking the new city council could
> have
> > rezoned an area in Moscow for Hawkins, or a Super
> > Walmart?  Not that I'd want them to do it, but in
> > their negotiation with Hawkins, could that not
> have
> > been part of the negotiation, offering instead of
> > selling water and sewer, the ability to build in
> > Moscow?  If the new council really had Moscow's
> future
> > at heart, instead of merely development for
> > development's sake, regardless if that development
> > will directly compete with Moscow, it seems the
> > council had another alternative: rezone somewhere
> in
> > Moscow to suit what seems to be a need for more
> > shopping areas.
> > 
> > Keep in mind, though, that considering Walmart is
> the
> > kind of store that will close a smaller, older one
> to
> > build a Super Center, their intent is to garner
> more
> > market share.  They don't necessarily have the
> > community's interest at heart.  I think many
> owners of
> > these types of developments who live in another
> > community really are mostly interested in their
> bottom
> > line, not building community.
> > 
> > Case in point: the owner of the Palouse Empire
> Mall,
> > who does not live in Moscow, kicked Wheatland
> Express,
> > the bus from Pullman to Moscow, out of the mall. 
> They
> > no longer wanted the bus to stop at the mall
> because
> > they thought too many people were parking at the
> mall
> > to catch the bus there, regardless that their huge
> > parking lot is very rarely full.  I take the bus
> daily
> > and saw many people get off the bus at the mall,
> and
> > come back with full bags of groceries from Winco,
> and
> > other items.  I'm sure the owners of stores at the
> > mall are losing thousands of dollars of business a
> > year since the bus no longer stops there.  I'd say
> the
> > owner of mall isn't really concerned about
> building
> > community, on top of not caring if his tenants are
> > losing business.
> > 
> > Now the bus stops at Walmart, and most of those
> people
> > who get off there are shopping at Walmart.  If
> that
> > Walmart closes, I wonder if the bus will change
> its
> > stop to Hawkins, denying Moscow the business of
> > hundreds of people who come from Pullman.  I doubt
> the
> > bus would stop at both Hawkins and the PEM or
> another
> > store near there.
> > 
> > My point is, instead of subsidizing Whitman
> County's
> > growth by allowing another state to use our
> > infrastructure, the council should have had the
> smarts
> > to take public input on such a crucial issue to
> insure
> > that our resources are being put towards those who
> > really care about Moscow's future, rather than
> just
> > making a buck.
> > 
> > gclev
> > 
> >
>
=======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step
> Internet, 
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>   
> >               http://www.fsr.net                  
>     
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
>
=======================================================
> >