[Vision2020] Learning From History

Wed Jun 25 10:09:07 PDT 2008

We disagree almost entirely.  

I disagree with the idea of holding people indefinitely without trying them.  I think the prisoners have a right to challenge the government's evidence and make the government prove the validity of the charges.  I think the government should have to prove there is a valid reason to hold them and then should try them.  When tried the government should not be allowed to use 'evidence' obtained by torture, and the defendant must be allowed to see the evidence being used against him.

You use disparaging terms like 'US Big Shot Lawyers' that continue to show your contempt for lawyers; that's your view and you're welcome to it.  I'll simply point out that the two lawyers I know who are defending Guantanimo prisoners are doing it on their own dime, because they believe in what used to be bedrock principles of American law.

You talk about the truth.  The current system is not designed to let the truth see the light of day.  I don't know how you can trust this administration, which among it's other lies tried to hide the fact that we were secretly holding prisoners around the world, to tell the truth about the detainees.  A hearing allowing findings of guilt when 'evidence' based on torture is used is NOT about the truth.  Nor is it about the truth when prisoners can't see the evidence being used against them.

The recent decision is about allowing the truth to come out.  If you want the truth, you should support it.

Sunil

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 01:19:18 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Learning From History
To: vision2020 at moscow.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com

Sunil,

I don't think we disagree on anything in these regard except methods. 

Who are these people you claim deceived the US? Until I get some specifics, I am thinking this is just a fictitious claim to free these terrorists and those that got mixed up with them.  

I am all for devising a system that only captures the terrorists, and doesn't capture any innocent people. However, I don't know of any such system. And I doubt that US Big Shot Lawyers in our Civil Court system are going to be any more capable or qualified of weeding out the real terrorists from the falsely imprisoned innocent people than the soldiers and intelligence experts on the ground. If anything, I just think all these lawyers will muddy the waters even more in an attempt to blur the lines between the guilty and innocent in the hopes of freeing their client, which may or may not be a terrorist that could kill innocent people as quickly as they are freed. 

I know you have great confidence in our legal system. However, I believe our civil court system has become too much about pushing political philosophy and who can afford the best lawyer. I don't think it is so much about finding the actual truth in the case. And in matters of national security, I think the truth is more important than who is the best lawyer or to push a political philosophical point of view. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Tue, 6/24/08, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Learning From History
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2008, 7:29 PM

Donovan,

Though I don't see any point in discussing this with you, since we're not going to change each other's minds, I will answer this question:

'Has the United States pursued any of these people that stole from the US and victimized innocent people by bearing false witness?

Of course friggin' not.  Then the torturing war criminals running this show would have to give us all the reason the pooch is walking funny.

Sunil

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:51:09 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Learning From History
To: lfalen at turbonet.com; vision2020 at moscow.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com

Sunil,

You write:

"What about those picked up because someone else got a reward for turning in names?"

Who are these people you keep bringing up that got rewards? Has the United States pursued any of these people that stole from the US and victimized innocent people by bearing false witness?

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Tue, 6/24/08, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Learning From History
To: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2008, 11:15 AM

Roger,

There are people in Guantanimo who fall into that category.  Many of them have been allowed to leave, but it goes to show that people got picked up, labeled as 'the worst of the worst,' and left to languish in cages.

Sunil

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:45:40 -0700
> From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Learning From History
> 
> These would probably fall into a different category
> 
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:23:15 -0700
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Learning From History
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Roger,
> > 
> > Does what you just said specifically apply to those who were not
 arrested on the battlefield and not in 'terrorist activities?' What about those picked up because someone else got a reward for turning in names?
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:34:28 -0700
> > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > To: thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Learning From History
> > > 
> > > Tom
> > > There is no comparison between the incarceration of US citizens of japanese descent and those at GIMO. The japanese were innocent law abiding citizens. Most of those at GIMO were captured on the battlefield, others were arrested for terrorist activities. The US citizens who were arrested for terrorist activities might legitimately be subject to the US Court System. Those that were capture in battle should not be. As previously stated by other there were German and Italian prisoner
 of war camps in the US. These were legitimate as are the battle field detainee at GITMO.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: Tom Hansen thansen at moscow.com
> > > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:37:58 -0700
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: [Vision2020] Learning From History
> > > 
> > > > >From Michael Josephson of "Character Counts" at:
> > > > 
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/4xljs4
> > > > 
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > 
> > > > Learning From History
> > > > By Michael Josephson
> > > > 
> > > > In a split decision, the Supreme Court recently ruled that people labeled 
> > > > as �enemy combatants� confined at the military base at Guantanamo Bay,

> > > > Cuba, must be given limited access to federal courts. Before I talk about 
> > > > the ethical issues involved, it�s helpful to review another major 
> > > > detention situation.
> > > > 
> > > > In 1941, a surprise attack by the Japanese government at Pearl Harbor 
> > > > brought our country into war and engulfed the nation in fear and hatred. 
> > > > In response, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, asserting special war 
> > > > powers, issued an Executive Order requiring all persons of Japanese 
> > > > ancestry living on the Pacific Coast of the United States to be forcibly 
> > > > confined in hastily constructed �War Relocation Camps.�
> > > > 
> > > > Ultimately, about 110,000 men, women, and children of all backgrounds were 
> > > >
 indiscriminately imprisoned in facilities that often lacked plumbing and 
> > > > heating. The Order applied to all residents who were at least 1/16th 
> > > > Japanese. Detainees were confined without the benefit of any process to 
> > > > determine whether they were actually a threat to national security.
> > > > 
> > > > Three years later, though the war was still raging, a Supreme Court ruling 
> > > > induced the President to release all the detainees. They were each given 
> > > > $25 and a train ticket home.
> > > > 
> > > > In 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed legislation that apologized for 
> > > > the internment, stating that the action was based on �race prejudice, war 
> > > > hysteria, and a failure of political leadership.� Surviving detainees were 
> > >
 > awarded $1.2 billion dollars in reparations. In 1992, President George H. 
> > > > W. Bush issued another formal apology from the U.S. government and added 
> > > > $400 million in reparations.
> > > > 
> > > > There are parallels to that Executive Order and our reaction after the 
> > > > terrorist attacks of 9/11. Looking back, who was right � President 
> > > > Roosevelt or Presidents Reagan and Bush?
> > > > 
> > > > Is there anything we can learn from this chapter of our history?
> > > > 
> > > > As a footnote, the 2001 national budget decreed that the former Japanese 
> > > > detainee camp sites are to be preserved as historical landmarks 
> > > > to �forever stand as reminders that this nation failed in its most sacred 
> > > > duty to protect
 its citizens against prejudice�and political expediency.�
> > > > 
> > > > This is Michael Josephson reminding you that character counts.
> > > > 
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > 
> > > > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> > > > 
> > > > Tom Hansen
> > > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > > 
> > > > "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college 
> > > > students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
> > > > 
> > > > - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> > > > http://www.fsr.com/
> >
 > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > =======================================================
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> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> > 
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