[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: The Nation, 6/30/08

Wed Jul 30 11:20:22 PDT 2008

Makes sense to me.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Scott Dredge sdredge at yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:03:40 -0700
To: viz vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] Re:  The Nation, 6/30/08

> Is there some problem that is trying to be solved here?  If someone has wealth through whatever legal means and manages their assets in a responsible manner, how are they not deserving of keeping that wealth?  If that same person blew their wad, I can't imagine there would be much of an outcry of unfairness and a plan of how we should all chip in to restore that particular person to their former net worth.  And as for some people undeserving of debt, I completely agree that there are some scenarios that are completely unfair such as someone with a long drawn out illness that bankrupts the entire family before the government steps in with assistance for medical care.  That doesn't make sense to me I think that scenario should be eliminated in some sensible manner..  And from my understanding, presently there aren't many options around that quagmire except for maybe assisted suicide.
> 
> What's wrong with the system we have in place here in America?  As long as there is a level playing field in terms of equal opportunity, isn't that the fairest system?  Now, if there is not a level playing field in terms of equal opportunity, then that should be fixed and I think we've come a long way in eliminating roadblocks on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation, disabilities, etc.
> 
> Are we in disagreement about any of this?
> 
> -Scott
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> To: Scott Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com>
> Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 8:38:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Vision2020] The Nation, 6/30/08
> 
> It's not always that easy.  Some people actually learn, albeit the hard 
> way.  So giving someone money and having them blow it sometimes teaches 
> them a little bit about how to budget effectively.  If you've never had 
> any, it's easy to lose track of it.  If you're not very good at math, 
> it's easy to find out how little money that huge sum you thought you had 
> actually was.
> 
> Granted, there are those who never seem to learn.  That's true 
> everywhere.  I just don't think it's a natural law that wealthy people 
> deserve their wealth and poor people deserve their debt.  How many 
> wealthy people could climb their way back to the top if you took away 
> the money?  How many of them inherited their wealth and have no idea how 
> to gain it back?  The fact that some do doesn't mean they all could.
> 
> I need to rent Trading Places again.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Scott Dredge wrote:
> > For the most part, hasn't this been proven over and over again such as 
> > millionaires losing just about everything in the Great Depression only 
> > to move on and become millionaires again or poor people who win the 
> > lottery and then 20 years later are back to being poor again?
> >
> > Personally, I don't need to look much further than my own family and 
> > extended family to site numerous examples of trying to help someone 
> > out by lending them money or 'selling' them a car at about 10% of its 
> > blue book value and finding out ultimately that in the long run you 
> > haven't really done anything to help them out at all.
> >
> > -Scott
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "Kai Eiselein, Editor" <editor at lataheagle.com>
> > To: Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com>
> > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:40:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Nation, 6/30/08
> >
> > There is no moralizing in my st<tr><td valign="top"></td></tr>atement.
> > I believe that, for whatever reason, some people are better at gaining
> > wealth than others. Those people will always find a way to become wealthy.
> > There are also those who would spend their last nickel on a whim. They 
> > will
> > always wind up broke.
> > Most of us wind up between those two.
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 12:44 PM
> > To: "Kai Eiselein, Editor" <editor at lataheagle.com 
> > <mailto:editor at lataheagle.com>>
> > Cc: "Saundra Lund" <sslund_2007 at verizon.net 
> > <mailto:sslund_2007 at verizon.net>>; "lfalen"
> > <lfalen at turbonet.com <mailto:lfalen at turbonet.com>>; "keely emerinemix" 
> > <kjajmix1 at msn.com <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>>;
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Nation, 6/30/08
> >
> > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Kai Eiselein, Editor
> > > <editor at lataheagle.com <mailto:editor at lataheagle.com>> wrote:
> > >> Human nature is human nature.
> > >> Chances are, most of the "have nots" would blow their windfall 
> > purchasing
> > >> things they could have never afforded before.
> > >> Without thinking of the future, many people would blow right 
> > through it.
> > >> Once gone, they would wind up selling many of the things they purchased
> > >> because they didn't save any of it for neccesities.
> > >> Many of the "haves" would see opportunities and try to make the most of
> > >> their windfall, gaining wealth.
> > >
> > > A great deal of this is a reflection of the way in which the economy
> > > rewards labor and capital. The high transportation and communication
> > > costs of the postwar economy (combined with the decimated industrial
> > > capacity in Europe) rewarded local production and local consumption.
> > > This allowed the unprecedented development of a blue-collar middle
> > > class. The economy, in other words, was structured to reward labor
> > > over capital.
> > >
> > > The modern has low transportation and communication costs and spare
> > > industrial capacity even in third-world nations. Manufacturing
> > > capacity, except for high-value items, has essentially been rendered
> > > fungible. Consequently, the bottom has dropped entirely out of the
> > > blue-collar middle class: even skilled workers have been forced to get
> > > jobs in the service economy.
> > >
> > > At the same time, conservative reforms have lowered capital-gains
> > > taxes and stripped away the estate tax -- both important mechanisms to
> > > reduce the concentration of wealth and reduce the self-rewarding
> > > nature of capital. Efficiency gains caused by the changes in the
> > > modern economy have sent corporate profits through the roof. CEO
> > > compensation, which is largely denominated in corporate stock, has
> > > consequently risen.
> > >
> > > The US is in a perverse economy where work doesn't make you money;
> > > money makes you money. This has nothing to do with your ass-backward
> > > moralizing about budgeting and more to do with corporate kleptocracy.
> > >
> > > -- ACS
> > >
> > Kai Eiselein
> > Editor, Latah Eagle
> >
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