[Vision2020] [Bulk] in a better world ...

[Paul Rumelhart]

Keely,

I think I understand where you're coming from, and wish you well with 
your quest.  I'd just suggest making the focus less you against him, if 
you can.  From what I've heard about him here on the list, he'll just 
eat that up.  From what I've seen, his congregation is filled with 
intelligent people that are focusing on the message and not the 
messenger.  So if the message is incorrect, and you can show that, 
they'll come around in time.

Paul

keely emerinemix wrote:
> Paul, I agree with you -- Wilson is not likely to "take over" Moscow, 
> not by coup, not by open warfare, not by legislation.  We do have a 
> Constitution to prevent such things, no matter what his postmillennial 
> dominion theology posits and no matter how elevated the putative 
> "Bishop" of Moscow presumes himself to be.
>
> But here's where we part ways.
>
> I am a Christian.  Wilson says he is; in fact, he is the most 
> well-known pastor in town, has enormous influence over his poor flock, 
> and is able to insinuate himself into politics, real estate and law in 
> ways that seem disproportionate to his standing as a largely 
> self-educated, self-accredited, self-made man of the cloth.  Only God 
> knows Wilson's heart, and while the Scriptures he and I claim to 
> adhere to invite us to determine the genuineness of someone's faith by 
> examining his or her fruit -- the good works, conduct, and results of 
> ministry -- I would really rather not hazard a guess.  It's enough for 
> me to say that he's a bigot, an opportunist, a contemptible bully and 
> a snake of a man.  I think I've not been at all shy on making that point.
>
> So why should I care?  There are lots of bad men and women in Moscow, 
> right?  Of course there are.  But no other man that I'm aware of 
> represents the Gospel and person of Jesus Christ as horribly as does 
> Doug Wilson, and that's what counts for me.  You see, I believe that 
> the most important question any of us will ever have to deal with is 
> "what do we do with Christ ?"  If nonbelievers come to think that 
> Jesus Christ is as Doug portrays him, and that the Christian faith is 
> nothing more than a bully stick to be wielded in one hand while 
> hoisting fine wine and cigars in another, stiff middle finger raised 
> to the community, they might shy away from trying to know about, and 
> eventually coming to know, Him.   Further, on their own, his comments 
> are ugly, hurtful, and overwhelmingly not in accord with Scripture.  
> He hurts people, Paul, and he does it in the name of Christ.  As a 
> Christ-disciple, I can't sit idly by. 
>
> My father-in-law is very active in Rotary, and he occasionally grumps 
> about "bad" Rotarians who don't follow the rules and don't represent 
> Rotary in its classic, historical, civic-minded sense.  And I guess 
> I'd care if I were a Rotarian.  But most of us agree that people who 
> dishonor and misrepresent Rotary will have to answer to no one higher 
> than its local Board, while people -- pastors! -- who dishonor and 
> misrepresent Christianity will have to answer to One higher still.  
> Further, Doug Wilson delights in behaving badly, and even if every 
> single soul in Moscow and throughout the country somehow knew that he 
> was getting it wrong, way wrong, the content of what he says is 
> damaging by its own measure. 
>
> I try, and fail, and try again to represent the Lord Jesus well, to 
> live out my verbal proclamation of the Gospel, and to extend grace and 
> charity to those who disagree (did I mention that I often fail?).  I 
> don't always get it right, but it matters to me that no one would ever 
> be turned away from Christ because I behaved like a total ass in His 
> name.  Quite often, people write me off list, or call me, or stop me 
> on the street to ask me about the Gospel, or challenge me with 
> something in the Bible, or thank me for speaking out.  I think that's 
> a good thing; I think I haven't made Christianity odious to anyone.  
> But to sit back, like our brave male pastors here in town, and watch 
> this man smear the Gospel of Christ with the dung of reckless contempt 
> is not possible for me.  I may someday be the only one, but I'll fight 
> all the more. 
>
> I love my town and its people, and I love Christ.  I even love, by 
> decision if not emotion, Doug Wilson.  If he needed a kidney and I 
> were a match, I'd offer it to him.  But I'll be damned if I'm going to 
> just cluck to myself that he's "being Doug again, darn it," and then 
> go my merry way.  I've devoted my adult life to justice, service, 
> preaching, and speaking out for the Gospel.  What message do I have to 
> proclaim if I avoid the hard stuff, the stuff that presents the most 
> odious challenge to the Gospel on the Palouse?  My faith, as I've said 
> before, requires that I be kind.  It doesn't require that I be nice, 
> and "nice" isn't called for here.
>
> Bad theology results in bad practice, and scores of Kirkers, past and 
> present, know the sting of this shepherds heavy-handed, bitterly 
> raised rod.  They feel they have no voice, but I do.  He may not be 
> Hitler, or Jim Jones, or Caligula, or even Billy Sunday.  He is what 
> he is, though, and what he does and says and teaches and demonstrates 
> is bad enough on its own, because it mocks and maligns the character 
> of my Savior. 
>
> It's worth the fight, every day, 'til the Kirk collapses and a remnant 
> of Spirit-led believers rises up, or 'til I die.  I really have no 
> concern for the order in which those things happen, Paul, because at 
> the end, I'll be able to stand before God and say I did the right 
> thing.  In this case, it ain't winning or losing that matters -- it's 
> showing up for the battle.
>
> I appreciate the respect with which you disagree with me and hope you 
> can understand,
>
> Keely
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:11:18 -0700
> > From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> > To: london at moscow.com
> > CC: kjajmix1 at msn.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] in a better world ...
> >
> > Does he have a white cat that he pets while laughing maniacally?
> >
> > Seriously, how plausible do you think that scenario is? The worst I see
> > happening is we get a few more libertarians on the city council, a few
> > more stores become owned by members of the Kirk, and Trinity Fest
> > doubles in size.
> >
> > Keely is free to do her own blog. I even respect her for caring about
> > something enough to blog about it. I just think you're all going about
> > this the wrong way. You're making Doug Wilson into Dr. Evil or Ernst
> > Blofeld or whatever crazy mad villain you like best.
> >
> > I don't see the signs that should be worrying me here. I don't see a
> > compound where only Christ Church members can live in such a way that
> > they are kept away from their families. I don't see them stockpiling
> > guns and ammo and running drills like the crazy Montanans do. I don't
> > see anybody forced to give up more than the 10% of their wages other
> > religions demand of their followers. I don't see anyone refusing
> > medical help for their children, dressing funny, or protesting
> > businesses. I don't even see any crazy beliefs that aren't any crazier
> > than any other Christian beliefs that stem from a too-literal
> > interpretation of the Bible.
> >
> > Whether or not they are misinterpreting the Bible, I have no idea. But
> > I think that most of us in Moscow are free from their evil clutches.
> >
> > Besides which, as I understand it, they are actually free to believe
> > whatever nonsense they're currently spouting.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Bill London wrote:
> > > I side with Keely on this issue.
> > > Doug Wilson has a political agenda. He wants to remake Moscow and
> > > this region into his own theocratic fiefdom.
> > > Exposing Wilson's agenda and his ideas is what will counter and
> > > ultimately derail his plan.
> > > BL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Rumelhart"
> > > <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > To: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> > > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 5:26 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] in a better world ...
> > >
> > >
> > >> I've said it before, but I'll go ahead and say it one more time. 
> You're
> > >> giving him too much power. The proper response, in my opinion, is to
> > >> just point at him and laugh when he makes a comment like that in the
> > >> future.
> > >>
> > >> I respect what you're doing, but every blog post you make will 
> just give
> > >> him credibility to those who already think he walks on water.
> > >>
> > >> Paul
> > >>
> > >> keely emerinemix wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Visionaires,
> > >>>
> > >>> Never would I have thought that I would live in a community 
> whose most
> > >>> well-known and powerful pastor, one who claims to be a Trinitarian
> > >>> Christian and a Bible teacher, would behave in the hostile, hateful,
> > >>> and horrendous manner that Douglas Wilson of Christ Church has.
> > >>> During my six and a half years of living in Moscow and loving it, I
> > >>> have been beyond dismayed at his theology, teaching, and engagement
> > >>> with the community, and I've learned not to be surprised
> > >>> img20080726183626428at what comes from his pen or out of his mouth.
> > >>> But I find that he yet has the ability to shock me, owing more 
> to his
> > >>> crass conduct than to my naivete, and this morning offers another
> > >>> example.
> > >>>
> > >>> In a column bashing Pastor Greg Boyd's new book on the idolatry of
> > >>> Christians in claiming the United States as a "Christian 
> nation," and
> > >>> throwing themselves into politics in an attempt to make the 
> kingdom of
> > >>> God right here, right now, Wilson complains that Boyd has no basis,
> > >>> then, for judging anything to be wrong. His serrated edge flashing,
> > >>> he says that, for example, if he told Boyd his church spent last 
> night
> > >>> "lynching homos -- you shoulda been there!", Boyd couldn't 
> reasonably
> > >>> object.
> > >>>
> > >>> Boyd won't, because Wilson's pontificating has, thankfully, a 
> limited
> > >>> audience. But I can, and I do. In fact, my 15-year-old son
> > >>> Jimg20080726183626428onah and I both responded to Wilson on his Blog
> > >>> and Mablog, and while my son responded to the church/state 
> issue, I'm
> > >>> as proud of him as I am embarrassed, once again, by the man who 
> would
> > >>> like to be thought of as the Bishop of the Palouse. I invite you to
> > >>> read my comments there. If not, let me state in the most 
> concrete way
> > >>> that I can:
> > >>>
> > >>> For a pastor to make a point, any point, by using "lynching 
> homos" as
> > >>> an example, one of hyperbole and excess, is despicable, particularly
> > >>> given the virulent homophobia Wilson has espoused. And for none of
> > >>> his readers to complain is, while predictable, most 
> disappointing. In
> > >>> a perfect world, or even a mildly better one, other Christians would
> > >>> howl in protest, rebuking Wilson immediately and publicly. It ain't
> > >>> that kind of world, though. And, hesitant church leadership
> > >>> notwithstanding, it's frankly just as sad to me that many of you 
> don't
> > >>> want to comment, object, or even know -- and wish I would just 
> shut up
> > >>> about the whole thing.
> > >>>
> > >>> Sorry, but I can't do it. What I can and will do, however, is begin
> > >>> my own very publicized, very pointed blog devoted to defending the
> > >>> Gospel by correcting bad theology both within the Kirk and from 
> other
> > >>> sources. I don't know what to call it yet, and I don't know how to
> > >>> design it, but I intend to never let up 'til the day I die . . .
> > >>>
> > >>> The stakes for our community are high, higher than most Moscow
> > >>> residents realize. But the stakes are even higher for the message of
> > >>> peace and reconciliation, justice and love, spoken and lived by the
> > >>> Lord Jesus Christ and sullied by Wilson, et al. If Christ means
> > >>> anything to me, I can certainly endure the scorn of my neighbors and
> > >>> the mocking of the boys at the Kirk by writing against them. I'll
> > >>> still write on Vision, and still write about Christ Church as 
> relevant
> > >>> to the discussion, but the content of my blog will be theology, 
> gender
> > >>> and peace-and-justice issues, and scathing critique of those who 
> spew
> > >>> bigotry in the name of Christ.
> > >>>
> > >>> As a stay-at-home mom with a fairly useless BA from a 
> quarter-century
> > >>> ago, I may be "just a housewife" to some at the Kirk -- but if I 
> am a
> > >>> housewife, I am a thundering one, and I can't be silent.
> > >>>
> > >>> Keely
> > >>> img20080727165249934
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> 
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