[Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

Tue Jul 15 05:38:45 PDT 2008

It's always the dramatic scenario for the defenders of war crimes: 

'would you waterboard a Nazi to find and free victims in a concentration camp? Or would you just let them all die?'

What we're doing is far more mundane.  Torture people on the chance they may know something.  And far less dramatic; instead of heroes torturing the evil Nazis to find camp victims, we have clever people trying to devise legal defenses for what they know to be violations of the Geneva Conventions.  We'll see how effective they think they were when Bush issues his list of pardons at the end of his presidency.

And let's not forget to define the 'Other' as the worst kind of sub-human.  A Nazi concentration camp guard, not Abdul the taxi driver, whose neighbor turned him in for a reward.  Easier to torture him that way, isn't it?

That's a silly game you're setting up, Donovan, and I'm not playing it.  

Sunil

Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:40:15 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
To: vision2020 at moscow.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com

Sunil,

I don't know where you get your ideas. The US has been torturing people for a long time. The CIA did all sorts of horrible things, particularly when Bush Sr. was its director. J. Edgar Hoover also did some pretty nasty unconstitutional things as well. Truman dropped a couple nukes on villagers in Japan. President Washington flogged his own men. Jackson laced blankets given to Indians with small pox. Wilson used chemical warfare in WWI. Lincoln ignored the Constitution completely. Nixon tapped phones. And I won't get into what was done during the Reagan Administration. 

All nations torture or are under the protection of countries that do. A country has to be willing to kill any other nation if it wants to protect its citizens or sell its self interests to a nation that will do it for them. 

I ask you Sunil, would you waterboard a Nazi to find and free victims in a concentration camp? Or would you just let them all die?

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Mon, 7/14/08, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:45 PM

Roger,

Until Bush and Cheney decided they wanted to do it, our country recognized that waterboarding was torture.  We are either a country that recognizes what torture is, like other civilized countries, that follows international law, or we are a rogue state.

Sunil

> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:13:41 -0700
> From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> Sunil
> We should have some standards. Waterboarding looks more physiological than physical to me. I dont have a problem with physiological. I don't think giving them a coup of coffee and saying "now please tell us what you know"would be vary effective. We something a little more stringent than that. There will of course be alot of miss-information to sort through. One never knows for sure what one would due if they were in those
 circumstances. I would like to think that I would give them a lot of miss-information
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:20:06 -0700
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> > 
> > Roger,
> > 
> > The problem with your position, 'I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture him.
> > 
> > If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at all.
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > > Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700
> > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > To:
 sslund_2007 at verizon.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > > 
> > > Saundra
> > > I didn't say it was not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being dunked. As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: "Saundra Lund" sslund_2007 at verizon.net
> > > Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700
> > > To: "'lfalen'" lfalen at turbonet.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > > 
> > > > In
 part, Roger wrote:
> > > > "I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it is nothing more
> > > > than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is."
> > > > 
> > > > You've already gotten great info, so now you know what waterboarding is. I
> > > > thought every adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's
> > > > certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . I
> > > > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as citizens have
> > > > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness sake.
> > > > 
> > > > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to you that both waterboarding and
> > > > repeated dunking *are* torture. There are many, many, many documented
> > > > instances where it's undeniable that the horror
 of repeated dunking as an
> > > > "enhanced interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple. As is
> > > > waterboarding. Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are
> > > > well-recognized and nothing new at all. Due to the perversion of some human
> > > > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is torture is
> > > > torture.
> > > > 
> > > > Should you have any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the
> > > > Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the
> > > > atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War. The military junta called the
> > > > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and it undoubtedly qualifies as
> > > > torture by any sane definition of the word.
> > > > 
> > > > I'd suggest
 having someone try it on you so you could form your own
> > > > firsthand opinion, but on second thought: DON'T!!! It is dangerous.
> > > > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and people DIE while
> > > > being repeatedly dunked. Instead, read the accounts of those who have
> > > > experienced waterboarding firsthand. While it's not nearly the same
> > > > experience as those who have had it done For Real, read what Christopher
> > > > Hitchens has to say. Read the accounts of real survivors.
> > > > 
> > > > I know you say you are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you
> > > > would define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head
> > > > repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least for
> > > > the "interrogators" -- just
 short of death don�t qualify as torture?
> > > > 
> > > > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need to have a discussion about whether
> > > > such acts at the behest of ***our*** government constitute torture :-(
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Saundra Lund
> > > > Moscow, ID
> > > > 
> > > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> > > > nothing.
> > > > ~ Edmund Burke
> > > > 
> > > > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus
> > > > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
> > > > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> > > > author.*****
> > > > 
> > >
 > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> > > > On Behalf Of lfalen
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 AM
> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > > > 
> > > > Nick 
> > > > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am opposed to
> > > > torture. The problem is in what constitutes torture.
> > > > 
> > > > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the arms, and breaking bones are
> > > > clearly torture. When I was is the Army there was a war game exercise in
> > > > which dogs from the US Army Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.
> > > > One First Lt.
 broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this
> > > > constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of
> > > > course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it
> > > > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is. I would
> > > > defer to John McCain on this.
> > > > I have no doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.
> > > > Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I agree
> > > > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. There needs to
> > > > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news reports on the stories of
> > > > detainees being tortured and their religion being insulted; I would take
> > > > this with a grain of salt. I have read a lot of
 reports tha indicate the
> > > > reverse. The reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The
> > > > detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards show
> > > > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are brought up on
> > > > charges. The same goes for anything approaching torture. There were of
> > > > course a few detainees related to 9/11 that were interrogated heavily.
> > > > whether any of it constitutes torture is debateable.
> > > > In any case there has been no further 9/11's
> > > > Roger
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > =======================================================
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