[Vision2020] Contractors

Tue Jan 29 18:00:07 PST 2008

Grace period is not unreasonable, but most people who would put it off, will likely (that's LIKELY) find one reason or another to continue to put it off.   I think most states with this kind of law do have a "you have 12-24 hours to get the snow removed."  But to ADD to that period, I think, is just too much.  Again, if its an issue - HIRE someone like YOU, for instance.  A win-win proposition, it would seem to me.

J  :]

From: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
To: sslund_2007 at verizon.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:45:15 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

Hi Saundra,

Thanks for the kind words. 

I am not opposed to the idea of fines or contractor fees, heck its a boost to my business. I am opposed to having fines on those who have reasonable excuses, such as a cop on patrol or leaving the house after shoveling the walks, and another storm hits, and now incapable of shoveling until later. In other words I do believe a grace period of let's say 12-24 hours is necessary. Allow these owners to do their job. However, a fine for those repeat offenders or those who have let it slide for a couple of days, is not out of line. A Nine Am cut off time is too much, especially when the city hasn't done their part by then. 

In Chas' example of being out of town for extended periods, I believe the home owner needs to find a friend to take over or maybe the volunteer program could take over, or maybe hire somebody(worst case).

J and her example of "just get up earlier" doesn't work for all. 

Matt

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:10:28 -0800
From: sslund_2007 at verizon.net
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Contractors
To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Hi
Again Matt and Other Interested Visionaries:

Thanks
for the response – I enjoy the conversation.

In
reading your response, I’m worried that I may have inadvertently given
the impression with my second to the last paragraph that I was somehow
questioning any eligibility criteria the City & PCEI have regarding eligibility
for assistance from Snow Patrol volunteers.  Please allow me to clarify I
absolutely didn’t mean to give that impression at all.

This
was my last paragraph:

“However, even if I had didn’t have a crappy back, I
don’t think I’d be too interested in spending too much time
volunteering to clear sidewalks for those able-but-unwilling to do the job
themselves to help keep the rest of us safe, you know?  Nor am I very
interested in having my tax dollars go to clear the sidewalks of those
able-but-unwilling to do the job themselves to help keep the rest of us safe.”

I
apologize for being unclear:  those thoughts had absolutely nothing to do
with our wonderful volunteer Snow Patrol Program.

Rather,
that paragraph was meant to address the kind of generic attitude I’ve
heard and read that, “Yeah, it’s important that sidewalks be
cleared, but we shouldn’t fine non-elderly, non-differently-abled property
owners who choose not to clear the sidewalks they’re responsible for –
let’s have volunteers do it or find some other solution.”

I
think the idea of “neighbors helping neighbors” some have mentioned
is great!  Those situations aren’t a problem because someone is willingly
clearing those sidewalks.

But,
that doesn’t change the fact that too many sidewalks aren’t being
cleared in a timely matter, and it’s a public safety issue.  For
those who don’t believe me, talk to kids who walk to school.  Talk
to our elderly, many of whom become shut-in when there’s snow on the
ground because they’re – rightly --  afraid of falling on uncleared
sidewalks.  Take to our differently-abled community members, and to those
who work with them.  Talk to people who still walk to work even in the winter,
or to the college students who walk to campus.  Listen to people like
Janesta and Bev and myself and all the others who don’t turn a blind eye or
a deaf ear to the problem.  There is a public safety issue
that’s problem during the winter months year after year after year.

Clearly,
I’m not directing my rant <g> at you, Matt, because you have
admirably become part of the solution for the elderly and differently-abled
property owners who aren’t able to clear their sidewalks.  Again, my
sincere gratitude to you and to the others who are helping!

I’m
intrigued with the idea of having youth (and adults, too, who aren’t gainfully
employed) on probation clear sidewalks.  I don’t know how feasible
it is, but I’m intrigued.

However,
even if something like that is possible, I think the property owner should bear
the cost, and those costs could go back into the tax coffers.  If those on
probation do the work, there are still costs associated with such an effort. 
Why should 10% (or whatever) of irresponsible able-but-unwilling property
owners get a free service from the rest of the tax payers?  I definitely
don’t think we want to get into the position of rewarding those who
choose to disregard public safety, be irresponsible property owners, and flout
the law, do you?

I’m
open-minded on the topic, but other than having some process in place for
clearing the public sidewalks property owners choose not to clear and billing
the property owner for the cost, I’ve not seen any workable suggestions
yet.  I believe this to be an important public safety issue that deserves
to have a solution precisely because we live in an area where there’s
snow in the winter.

I
repeat:  other communities in snow areas long ago came up with workable solutions
to the problem – why can’t Moscow?

JMHO . . . Again,

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
people to do nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008
through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt,
or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
permission of the author.*****

From: Matt Decker
[mailto:mattd2107 at hotmail.com] 

Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 3:00 PM

To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com

Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Contractors

Saundra,

Fair enough. i understand your point and frustration. I know we can all do more
to help each other and pay attention to others, such as car placement. I go
through cars being in my snow plowing way, every morning. 

I guess I am one that would rather help out first then, if that doesnt solve it
resort to 882-cops. This is why I am volunteering my time through the PCEI to
help others that are unable. I too, just like J Ford helps the neighbors out
when needed, just like I assume or hope all of us on the V do.

I am not sure how PCEI filters it's clients to insure an "unable"
person, but believe me if I ever find out I am volunteering time to an able
bodied person, I'm outta there.

Take care

Matt

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:15:18 -0800

From: sslund_2007 at verizon.net

To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

Hi Matt,

Well, I’m not sure I can agree with you that “we all
want clean clear streets.”  I absolutely agree with you, but
have you driven around town lately?  As today’s City Press Release
posted here on the Viz  highlights, there are more than a few people who
haven’t bothered to move their vehicles so plows can do the job. 
Perhaps some are broken down, in which case they shouldn’t be parked on
public streets.  Perhaps some owners are out of town, in which case their
vehicles shouldn’t be left parked on public streets, particularly in
winter.

Whatever the various reasons folks have left their cars parked
on public streets for extended periods, it’s created a public safety
issue for all of us attempting to get around whether by walking, biking, or
driving.

The same public safety issues arises when property owners fail
to clear their sidewalks.  I’m with you in that I don’t’
think CdA’s 9 AM deadline is realistic -- what if you shovel at 7 AM
before leaving for work and another 2” fall after you’ve left for
work?

However, I absolutely agree with Janesta and others that we need
to do more to address the many, many situations of those who aren’t
clearing their sidewalks in a timely manner.

I am proud to live in a community that has come up with a
solution for the elderly and differently-abled who aren’t able to clear
their own sidewalks, but what about all the property owners who just
don’t seem to give a darn, putting the safety of the rest of us at risk?

Other communities have come up with workable solutions –
why can’t we?  The current system really doesn’t work well, as
those of us (including school children) who are pedestrians in winter are well
aware of.

I have a crappy back and therefore can’t help out with the
City of Moscow’s & PCEI’s wonderful Snow Patrol (http://www.pcei.org/VolunteerSnow.htm)
 – but kudos to you and others who are helping!

However, even if I had didn’t have a crappy back, I
don’t think I’d be too interested in spending too much time
volunteering to clear sidewalks for those able-but-unwilling to do the job
themselves to help keep the rest of us safe, you know?  Nor am I very
interested in having my tax dollars go to clear the sidewalks of those
able-but-unwilling to do the job themselves to help keep the rest of us safe.

Thus, it seems to me an infinitely reasonable solution is to
have a mechanism in place to get the flippin’ job done in a timely manner
and then bill the property owner.

JMHO,

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
people to do nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008
through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt,
or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
permission of the author.*****

From:
vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On
Behalf Of Matt Decker

Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:41 PM

To: J Ford; vision2020 at moscow.com

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

J,

Try having a conversation w/o harping on someone you disagree with for once
will ya.

 To fine people for not being done by 9 am regardless, to me, is too harsh
of a rule. There are too many what ifs. How can you justify making a cop or
firefighter get paid help because he/she is out protecting YOU. Or how can you
have it in your heart to make the guy clearing the streets and sidewalks of the
snow, that the cops have to pay for, pay an extra $500 a month. 

Look we all want clean clear streets. In my opinion fining the bajesus out of
those who cannot do it is not the right solution. So let's quite the belittling
and come to a solution, if this current one is not working for you.

Maybe juveniles on probation is a good start.

Or you can donate your time to help clean some these sidewalks. Talk to Kit
Craine for info. She got me started on it.

Matt

From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com

To: vision2020 at moscow.com

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:01:38 -0800

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

Ok, so there is State-wide example precedent for this type of thing.  I
like the sound of your example, Janesta.  Wonder if ANYone in the City is
willing to comment or even DO something positive to resolve the issue......

Matt - whatever.  

When you own property, being out of town or being at work still means its up to
you, the property owner responsible party, to make sure things get done. 
I suppose if someone working on your property slips and breaks an arm while
you're gone due to your not making a needed repair, your "not responsible
as I was at work or out of town" defense would work?  Nope.  

There are a lot of "out-of-town" owners with property in Moscow -
they hire property managers who are supposed to - ahem - "manage" the
property and make sure things get done. 

J :]

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:56:57 -0800

From: janesta at gmail.com

To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com

CC: vision2020 at moscow.com; privatejf32 at hotmail.com

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

In
Couer d' Alene, if the walks aren't cleared by 9:00 am, and kept clear, the
city will do it, and fine the property owner $100.00. If the fine isn't paid,
it is attached as a lien on their property.

Put
the kids on probation to work. It is a tangible way to know they have completed
the job. If the snow hasn't been removed, the job isn't done.

I
respectfully disagree with you, Matt. The buck stops with the owner of the
property. Why should I get injured due to the neglance of a property owner?
Taking care of the sidewalks is part of the responsibility of being a property
owner.

Also,
Matt, I appreciate your gracious offer to shovel my walks last week...
*smile* I don't have any sidewalks, other than a short three foot walk to the
gravel alley.

Janesta

On 1/28/08, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote: 

I think going down this road can lead to a
whole new can of worms. If we start doing contractor work for snow, then whats
next? 

Maybe I can start billing the city for plowing my street. 

I believe if the people in town need help with the sidewalks, just ask. Many
out there will help. No need to fine people who in most cases can't do it or
are out of town.

2 cents

Matt

From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com

To: vision2020 at moscow.com

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:39:08 -0800

Subject: [Vision2020] Contractors 

I know this won't solve the issue today, but has the City
or County ever thought about having contractors on retainer, so that if a
problem area sidewalk owner/responsible party refuses to or is slow to clean it
off, the contractor is brought in to do the cleaning off and then the
owner/responsible party is fined for the work done?  If there isn't
anything like that now on the books, is there a possibility to consider it in
the future, like for next year?

Comments????

J :]

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