[Vision2020] The Derogatory Athiests

Sat Feb 23 10:11:10 PST 2008

Thank you, Chas, for your thoughtful and courageous comments below.  You and I have talked enough for you to know how much I appreciate (as in "understand the value of," not "am thankful for") your journey from faith to non-theism.  I find, as I grow older and more tested, that my faith means more to me.  You've had a different experience, and as you've not judged me, I cannot judge you.  I can, however, echo some of the pain you've felt from people who were more interested in "acting like" Christians than simply being Christians.  Believe me, that's something on which I'm somewhat of an expert.

I've stayed out of this link because while I believe that most of the evil in the world is, in fact, human-caused, I struggle with the presence of both it and purely natural disasters that take life.  It isn't enough for me to say that Chas' earlier example of the six-year-old girl with the parasitic infection who pleads with Jesus for healing and still dies is insignificant because, after all, she'll probably go to heaven anyway.  The cosmological "no harm, no foul" of some Christians evinces a lithe and callous spirit, too heavenly minded to be any earthly, heavenly, temporal or eternal good.  It's actually quite damaging, as it discounts suffering in the body for promise of eternal membership in the Body -- the distinction between our physical beings and our being knit together as believers into the Body of Christ's church.  Not that there isn't something sure and hopeful for the believer who prays for the redemption of pain, poverty, oppression, and disease -- but God never asks us to dismiss our temporal, physical agonies, and He is adamant that we who call on Him work to alleviate the suffering of others.   

That a very great portion of suffering on this Earth is caused by people is undeniable, whether viewed directly (political oppression, violence) or indirectly (lack of housing, hunger).  But the Christ-follower must go deeper than assessing the damage and then assigning blame to people who choose to live contrary to the Lord's way.  The disciple -- that's me, in this case -- must also conclude, with tears of repentance, that she or he has sinned in a particularly egregious manner, along with the Church throughout time.  We who call on the name of Christ and take  His gospel to the world have  steadfastly ignored His command to "live justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God."  We think it's sufficient to not cheat our neighbors or under report taxes; we sentimentalize or ignore the plight of those billions who unjustly live in squalor while we enjoy the benefits of cheap clothes and ample food.  That's a justice issue.  We enjoy the mercy of bringing casseroles to sick church friends, but we mock, slander, and abuse the dirty, the lost, and the angry around us.  And we call our walk with God "humble" because we can quote "it is by grace you are saved" our of Paul's letter to the Ephesians, and then we flock to movements and politics that elevate our particular demographic -- nation, gender, race, income level, place of birth -- while demonizing (cursing, really) those who constitute the "Other."  We don't identify with the poor, defend the oppressed, suffer with the brokenhearted, or work to alleviate their pain.  We're raucous and loud about gay marriage and abortion and taxes, but strangely -- smugly -- silent about injustice.  Some in town have made this virtually an article of faith; others of us are simply along for the ride of privilege.  But all of us who are Christians must end the "suffering is primarily caused by humans . . . " sentence with " . . . and we, the Church, are the primary offenders."

I've been considerably more absent from Vision in the last couple of months as I've dealt with some health issues, and I'm unlikely to pick up my usual pace as soon as I'd like -- or sooner than many of you would.  But I welcome any comments or criticisms, and I want to reaffirm my respect for Chas' position and my tempered agreement with the thesis of Donovan's argument.  

Keely

> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:53:19 -0800
> From: chasuk at gmail.com
> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com; nielsen at uidaho.edu
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Derogatory Athiests
> 
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:09 PM, Donovan Arnold
> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > The primary problem with many Atheists is they don't understand that faith
> > in God is based on personal experience, and beliefs, as well and evidence
> > presented to them by God himself. It is not based on arguments made based on
> > speculation and conjecture.
> 
> I don't claim atheism, though it often claims me, as most people
> aren't interested in the nuances.  I am non-theist, philosophically
> more aligned with the agnostics than with others.   But even that
> label is inadequate, as so many Christians conflate atheism and
> agnosticism with non-theism as to make the distinctions irrelevant.
> 
> Anyway, the problem with many Christians is that they make the
> erroneous assumption that you are making here.  I have talked with
> God.  We had a deeply personal relationship.  I'm not mocking here;
> I'm describing my Christian experience as I might have when I was
> still a Christian.  I was what is popularly called "Born Again," and
> my faith was very important to me.  God revealed himself to me in a
> dramatic way that I will not go into here, and I would probably
> decline to describe under any circumstances.  But it was real to me,
> and I believed fervently.  I was filled with the Holy Ghost; I spoke
> in tongues, I ministered, I proselytized, I praised His name in all of
> my actions both public and private.  I read the Bible daily, I
> attended church three times weekly, I listened to religious music
> exclusively.  Does anybody remember Andrae Crouch and the Disciples?
> I used to love them.  I used to adore Jimmy Swaggart before he fell
> from grace.  Have any Christians here read Tortured for His Faith?
> The Cross and the Switchblade?  Run, Baby, Run?  The Hiding Place?
> Hinds Feet on High Places?  Any of the numerous books by Salem Kirban?
> 
> But I lost my faith.  It happens more often than you might think, and
> certainly more than most Christians seem to understand.
> Non-theists/atheists/agnostics are often reluctant to speak of their
> former faith, because we are inevitably confronted with "Well, you
> must have never had a witness in the first place, if you could fall
> away.  You were never a REAL Christian."  Needless to say, this
> condescension grows tiresome.
> 
> What I do know is that faith can't be backed up by "arguments made
> based on speculation and conjecture."  One shouldn't even try.  "Now
> faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
> seen."  Hebrews 11:1.  Accepting Jesus in your heart, accepting the
> still small voice of God -- those things require a leap of faith, not
> arguments.
> 
> > I don't frankly, appreciate CHAS, in particular, poking fun of my faith. And
> > if he doesn't believe in God, that is his problem. But if he is going to be
> > insulting and disrespectful, to me and others that have a different personal
> > belief and relationship with God, then I must honestly tell them go bug off
> > and go be godless without involving me in his insulting and derogatory
> > anti-religious behavior.
> 
> I have been unkind to you.  For the unkindness, I apologize.  I can't
> apologize for having the sentiments which motivated the unkindness.  I
> think I explained reasonably the reason for my temper in a previous
> post.
> 
> I live in a secular world.  Unless we are clergy or laity, most of us
> do.  Because I am a non-theist, I live in a super-secular world.  I
> seldom go to church, and then it is only to one of those nominally
> Christian denominations with a friend, or with the UUs.  A minority of
> my friends or acquaintances are theists.  Because I encounter so few
> believers, I am startled when I hear a sincere expression of faith.
> Your faith startles me.  First, because the only person who routinely
> shares/demonstrates her faith on Vision2020 is Keely.  Second,
> because, frankly, I've watched you and Tom Hansen sling mud at each
> other for years in tones and words that I don't think would make Jesus
> happy.  When you occasionally remind us that you are a Christian, it
> takes a moment to adjust.
> 
> Chas
> 
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