[Vision2020] Drug Thugs rampage again

Wed Aug 13 21:05:58 PDT 2008

Mike et. al.

Regarding a "courteous request to come in," as you phrased it, when police
are conducting a drug raid, police will argue they cannot engage in these
social niceties (or rather respect for the Fourth Amendment of the US
Constitution?), given evidence may be destroyed if they don't enter the
residence and "disable" the occupants as quickly as possible.
---------
Some have objected to discussions on Vision2020 that are not directly
related to the Vision2020 Mission Statement, or do not meet a certain
definition of a local community issue.

Allocation of law enforcement resources and tactics to enforce drug laws
(and alcohol and tobacco are drugs), government law and law enforcement
policies and regulations regarding drugs, as they also relate to civil
rights, are profound local issues, no doubt about it...

Can someone provide the data on the numbers of deaths from drunk driving in
Latah and Whitman counties in the past 40 years? And then there is the
influence of alcohol on domestic violence, child abuse, rape, and other
violent crime, and, most tragically, that poor U of I I student who was so
drunk she fell off the fire escape at a sorority and was permanently
paralyzed...

Shedding "light," as you wrote, on the subject, is exactly what is needed...

Let's consider the realities of underage drug use...

Alcohol and tobacco, powerful addictive substances, are easy for those
underage in the local community to obtain, sold at local grocery stores
across the counter (though of course not legally to those underage), while
the legal penalties involved in underage exposure to these powerful drugs is
comparatively minimal.  Other drugs also are present in the community,
certainly not sold across the counter at grocery stores, which receive a
much more severe legal and law enforcement response, for underage exposure,
though the medical and social facts indicate some of these substances (such
as cannabis) are less of a danger than alcohol or tobacco, with alcohol and
tobacco used commonly by those underage.

What if alcohol and tobacco received the same legal penalties regarding
their use by those underage (I mean for those supplying) as now accorded
cannabis?  Might this not lessen underage use of alcohol and tobacco?  The
assumptions of criminalizing drugs as a rational policy indicate it would.

Does the current law reflect a rational policy, that objectively assesses
the dangers to the public from various drugs, and fashions laws and
regulations to reflect these objective dangers, and allocates
resources correspondingly, in protecting the public?

At least the dangers of driving under the influence of alcohol is receiving
a much more intense focus from law enforcement.

Expecting rational thought and behavior on this issue is too much to ask, I
realise...

You are probably correct that this subject (this is my interpretation of
your language), exposes irrational social conditioning and bias to a degree
where rational objective discussion may be nearly impossible...

Too much "heat" as you wrote...

Thanks for your response, Mike...

Ted Moffett

On 8/12/08, Mike Finkbiner <mike_l_f at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ted -
>
> I'm not sure if 2020 is a useful place to discuss issues like the war on
> some drugs and the right to armed self defense.  Discussions in those areas
> tend to generate more heat than light.
>
> It would be interesting to see what folks in Moscow think about
> paramilitary
> police tactics.   One of the newspaper articles about the attack in
> Maryland
> said that one of the women in the house screamed when she saw people in
> black hoods carrying rifles climbing over the fence and coming across the
> lawn. I might do the same myself!
>
> I have no problems with policemen wearing protective vests, and helmets
> aren't a bad idea iin dangerous situations, but policemen should always be
> readily identifiable as police.  Several of the pictures of SWAT teams I
> have seen look like they want to be some sort of army special-ops unit.
>
> Police work is dangerous, but I feel there is a greater danger if the
> police
> set themselves apart from the people they are supposed to be protecting.
> Unless there is a truly verifiable threat to the officers, warrants should
> be served by a knock on the door and a courteous request to come in.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
> Mike Finkbiner
> mike_l_f at hotmail.com
>
> Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those
> who create it.
>
> Milton Friedman
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>
> >To: "Mike Finkbiner" <mike_l_f at hotmail.com>
> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Drug Thugs rampage again
> >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:20:53 -0700
>
> >Mike et. al.
> >
> >Even if the police in this case did give the residents "time to
> >respond," and announced they were the police, and had a warrant, before
> >breaking in, the dogs killed in this raid may still have been killed, and
> >the residents terrified and traumatized.  Police have justification to use
> >force against threats.  Even someone reaching into their pocket has been
> >used as a justification by police for lethal force.
> >
> >Another reason to not justify these sorts of raids (I recall you defend
> the
> >right to have firearms for self defense), is that when weapons are
> >displayed
> >for self defense when police unannounced burst into someones home, the
> >police are allowed to shoot in defense.  Innocent people have been shot by
> >police when they were only trying to defend themselves against a home
> >invasion from an unknown source.
> >
> >"Time to respond" or an announcement from police they are the police, is
> >one
> >thing, while the issue of whether the police had a search warrant issued
> by
> >a judge who gave due consideration to whether Fourth Amendment rights
> >should
> >be compromised, is another.  The Fourth Amendment has been weakened in the
> >US to the point where the police can conduct warrantless searches and it
> >passes... This erosion has been in part justified by the so called "war on
> >drugs," and has been expanded in the "war on terror."  Till the erosion of
> >the Fourth Amendment is rolled back, police will abuse their
> power.  That's
> >why we need strong civil rights in the first place, as the framers of the
> >US
> >Constitution were well aware of...
> >
> >A fundamental question in this case is, does the threat to society from
> >cannabis, which is what the suspicious package in this case contained,
> >justify erosion of Fourth Amendment rights and the treatment of these
> >people
> >and shooting their pets?  The medical journal Lancet published a study in
> >2007 listing cannabis as less harmful to society than either alcohol or
> >tobacco.  Alcohol was determined to be more of a harmful drug than
> >amphetamines.
> >
> >The laws clearly do not reflect the medical and social realities of the
> >objective threats posed by various drugs.  Even if the police announced
> who
> >they were, and had a warrant, before breaking down the door of the
> >residents
> >in this case, these tactics are questionable, given cannabis should be
> >decriminalized:
> >
> >http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-August/055355.html
> >
> >http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-August/055344.html
> >------------------
> >Ted Moffett
> >On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Mike Finkbiner
> ><mike_l_f at hotmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > I can see where there might be very rare occasions where it would be
> > > helpful
> > > for the police to be able to break in a door without giving the
> >occupants
> > > time to respond.  Unfortunately there have been quite a few problems
> >with
> > > the practice.  While the vast majority of police officers are decent
> >folks,
> > > it appears that there are a few of them who get a thrill out of
> > > paramililitary style raids.  Many of the raids I have read about don't
> >seem
> > > to have any other justification for a heavy-handed approach.
> > >
> > > Because of that I think we need to sharply curtail or eliminate the
> > > practice.  Police officers should knock on the door, clearly identify
> > > themselves and present a legal warrant before entering a house or
> > > apartment.
> > >
> > > I have no idea if this map of botched paramilitary style raids produced
> >by
> > > the Cato Institute is accurate, but it is sobering.
> > >
> > > http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
> > >
> > > Does anyone know how often this practice is used locally?  The map only
> > > shows one botched raid in North Idaho
> > >
> > >
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >
> > > If this incident had happened to Ordinary Joe Citizen, not the mayor
> and
> > > his
> > > family, I doubt we'd even hear about it.
> > >
> > > Ellen A. Roskovich
> > >
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Finkbiner
> > > mike_l_f at hotmail.com
> > >
> > > Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of
> >those
> > > who create it.
> > >
> > > Milton Friedman
> > >
> > >
> > > =======================================================
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> > >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >               http://www.fsr.net
> > >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> > >
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
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