[Vision2020] condemning rape
Joe Campbell
joekc at adelphia.net
Wed Apr 23 21:21:20 PDT 2008
Gary writes: "The fact of the matter is that according to all local law
enforcement and authorities responsible for matters such as these, the
handling of this case by CC and its elders was exemplary."
I'll just repeat one of Gary's comments to Saundra, from below: "You state as
fact (without providing so much as a hint of real evidence) ..."
Suppose that you're right and Saundra is wrong. What are the consequences of that?
Suppose that Saundra is right and you are wrong. What are the consequences of that?
If I were taking Gary's position, I'd want to make sure that I was right.
--
Joe Campbell
---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
=============
Since I am not inclined to accept as fact your every assertion and do not have access to shoe boxes full of everything CC, I will address your post based strictly upon what is in it.
You state as fact (without providing so much as a hint of real evidence) that "a very successful gag order was issued by church hierarchy which not a single member violated. Even though in the past you and others that make up the me too chorus have delighted in passing on tidbits that you claimed were provided to you by disaffected members of the CC congregation, on this one occasion they were monolithic in their silence. How strange.
Stranger still is the notion that this gag order was effectively impressed upon Wayne Rausch and the entirety of the Latah Co. Sheriffs Dept.
Brian Dulin and the folks in the Latah Co. Youth Services Dept.
Dan Weaver and every officer and employee of the Moscow Police Dept.
Bill Thompson and every member of the Latah Co. Prosecuting attorneys office.
Nathan Alford and the staff of the Lewiston Morning Tribune and the Moscow/Pullman Daily News.
Bear & LuJane Nisse and Kai Eiselein at the Latah Eagle.
Gary Cummings and the news depts. at KRPL, KZZL, KRAO, KMAX, & KCLX.
Evan Ellis at KQQQ.
and every single other news gathering and disseminating organization on the Palouse.
And I'm the one who will make any argument no matter how outlandish?
The fact of the matter is that according to all local law enforcement and authorities responsible for matters such as these, the handling of this case by CC and its elders was exemplary. I really wouldn't think that any more need be said. And yet a plucky little band of stalwarts with a long and ongoing history of antagonism for this particular group just happens to be the sole possessors of the "truth" and anyone who might find this ridiculous conspiracy theory hard to swallow is a "fool" and should be subject to "shame." Strange, strange, strange.
That's it, I've said my piece. Feel free to return to making up libelous assertions and posting them as fact. I'm going to bail before the discussion turns to the responsibility for the JFK assassination, UFO's, and the mystery that is the obama campaign.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Saundra Lund
To: 'g. crabtree' ; 'keely emerinemix' ; 'Sue Hovey' ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Dear Mr. Crabtree,
With respect to #4 below, have you lost your mind (no disrespect intended) or do you simply live in a parallel universe where no one else who gives a rip about children would care to live?
Fact: without a doubt, Doug Wilson knew of Steven James Sitler's heinous crimes on 3/10/2005. There has been speculation that Wilson orchestrated Sitler's flight from this community to avoid contact with local law enforcement, but we'll stick with facts here.
Fact: the criminal complaint was filed 7/6/2005.
Fact: depending on which Christ Church source you want to believe, church members were extensively informed of Sitler's predation in our community no later than November (that's from Wilson himself). Other Christ Church members claim to have known beforehand, but I'm content enough to use Wilson's dates in this context.
Fact: a very successful gag order was issued by Kirk hierarchy as evidenced by the fact that while the Kirk congregation was made aware of Sitler's predation in this and other communities, not a single member cared enough about all the children in this community - the children of their neighbors - to warn those of us not privy to Kirk HOH meetings that a monster had been free to prey on and molest our children for some 18 months. This from people who had - and have continued to -- shrilly insisted that they are good neighbors and members of the community. Needless to say, their kowtowing to that gag order makes hollow their demands for recognition as good neighbors.
Fact: outside the Kirk and the judicial system (which also remained inexplicably silent), no one in the community was informed for eleven months following his adjudication that this monster, who came to our community to attend NSA, had trolled for child victims in our community. The first news article appeared in the Trib on 6/7/2006 with the Snooze quickly following on the Trib's coattails 6/8/2006. News coverage only happened after the information was brought to light by others.
Fact: compare and contrast this with news coverage of other non-Kirk local sex offenders before and since, and it doesn't take a genius to realize that Svengali Doug Wilson's gag order was successful beyond his wildest dream.
We will be voting on some key local offices later this year, and I for one won't forget who played roles in withholding this vital community safety information, nor will I forget that our local newspapers (such as they are) have never quite been able to rise to the challenge of providing truly important news in a timely manner. But, I digress J
So, let's get back to this part of what you wrote to Keely:
"4. Again, the story was indeed disseminated, just not in the manner that would have made you the happiest. Are we noticing a trend here?"
If you think the dissemination factually outlined was adequate or appropriate, I would suggest that you seek immediate medical attention to have your head put back on your shoulders where it belongs rather than letting it remain where the sun doesn't shine. And, yes, we are noticing a trend here: for some completely unfathomable reason, you will make any argument, no matter how blatantly false or outlandish, to defend the Kirk while trying to make those who speak truth objects of ridicule. Shame on you.
So, have at it - we all know you will - let 'er rip, Mr. Crabtree.
First, though, I would remind you that you are a father with children you nurtured, love, care about, and tried to protect while raising them, and you only make yourself look the fool by continuing to defend the handling of the Steven James Sitler horror.
JMHO,
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.
~ Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of g. crabtree
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:35 AM
To: keely emerinemix; Sue Hovey; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
1. No change
2.It seems that your personal standard IS the issue since you go out of your way to enumerate it and then take every opportunity to point out instances where you are outraged at its not having been met. Unquestionably "horror, outrage, grief, and humility" were expressed during the course of this incident. Since you didn't detect any sack cloth and ash, nor any self flagellation, it didn't quite meet your personal standard. Not enough to satisfy Keely is not the same as not at all.
The cartoon you mention while perhaps being in questionable taste under the circumstances hardly meets the qualification for "scatological."
3.Why not go door to door and notify every household in the greater Quad Cities area? The churches mechanism for disseminating information is, apparently, head of household meetings. Another case of just because it's not done your way doesn't mean it wasn't done.
4. Again, the story was indeed disseminated, just not in the manner that would have made you the happiest. Are we noticing a trend here?
5. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree here. Technically true is the same as absolutely true. My memory is pretty good and I recall no moment during the incident where it wasn't plain where the defendant went to church.
6. " I believe that....." Once again we're back to your personal opinion. As I said before, good counsel can be had from a myriad of sources. A license and a PhD do not give a person an exclusive franchise on good advise.
7. I can't imagine how questioning a blatantly false statement (Ms. Hovey's original foolish remark) would give you the impression that "I don't like girls." As a male, I am unqualified to comment on this topic? Perhaps you should check in with my wife and two daughters for the straight skinny on how much I don't like them. I keep them safely locked up in a pumpkin shell in my back yard. Watch out for the dog. (he's a dude)
And the extra credit question's answer will have to be, for the most part, no. I see nothing about this faith community that makes them any more or less "objectionable" than any of the other congregations in our community that I have nothing but respect for. Obviously, you can't say the same thing. Why is it that only this group is singled out for your special brand of scrutiny? It would seem to me that many denominations would fail to live up to the Keely Mix personal standard.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: keely emerinemix
To: g. crabtree ; Sue Hovey ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Once again, by the numbers, as you say:
1. Wilson called the cops -- on that, we both agree.
2. My "personal standard" for pastoral behavior during a rape scandal, while reasonable, isn't the issue. I'm thankful that Wilson has an authority far, far above me who will judge his attitude. As for specific examples of sarcastic humor during what should have been a time of repentance and self-reflection, I gave you one: the cute little cartoon about the young male "youth group leader" ogling a young, curvaceous girl. I think I would, perhaps, have set aside my love of snicker-snicker, sophomoric cartoon art about lusty male ministers if I were a pastor whose congregation had been rocked by the rape of toddlers by one of its male students at its classical Christian college.
3. Why not tell the women directly?
4. And why not tell the community? The media's dissemination of the story was shoddy and tepid. The offender's home church was open and immediate about printing his name and the nature of his crimes once those committed in that community were revealed. Not a word from the Kirk until the story broke on Vision, courtesy of an outraged former congregant.
5. Your recollection fails you here. Wilson insisted the man was not a member of the congregation. Technically true, and yet patently false.
6. I believe that an untrained minister who holds to the doctrines of sexuality, patriarchy, submission and hierarchy that Wilson does should offer no more than prayer and comfort, not counseling for sex offenses, and that only after he humbly examines his own doctrinal foundations. The man had a licensed therapist in Lewiston. That he had a minister here in Wilson is undisputed; the perpetrator may call him "pastor," but I certainly wouldn't, and don't.
7. "Girl-power Christianity"? Good heavens. This is my religious faith, not a softball team. Fortunately, though, my God loves girls who live in His power. It's guys like you who don't like us, and yet somehow we go on.
And a bonus question: Is there anything -- ANYTHING -- that you've seen from Christ Church or its ministries or elders or pastor that you've found at all objectionable . . . ever?
Keely
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; suehovey at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:31:03 -0700
Ms. Mix, Thank you for response and benevolent wishes for my days progress. While your post in no way provides an answer to the manner whereby a group of men tolerated and protected sexual predators, (No surprise there. They didn't and you couldn't) it does raise a question or two not the least of which would have to be by what authority do you feel competent to set a minimum standard for a biblical response? That aside, It seems to me the incident WAS dealt with inside your parameters. By the numbers:
1. No possible disagreement here.
2. Here it seems that it was your PERSONAL standard that was not met. To assert that there was no expression of horror, grief, etc. is simply without merit. That it didn't satisfy your standards is no surprise. In all likelyhood nothing short of group immolation could have, I suspect. (I would ask for a specific example of "scatological" sarcasm from B&M but I imagine that it would arrive in a manner similar to Ms. Hovey's response to my initial question, either not at all or far short of the mark.)
3. Do you really imagine that when the husbands and fathers were informed that any of them thought it too inconsequential to mention to their wives? Anything interesting at the head of household meeting, dear? Gee whiz, honey there was something I was going to tell you about but its slipped my mind. Oh well, what's for supper? I very much doubt that any variation of that conversation took place.
4. It would be most unseemly (to say nothing of potentially illegal prior to trial) for a pastor to hold some sort of a press conference in a situation such as this. The media disseminated the story as is their job.
5. I can't really speak to this issue since I have no first hand knowledge but, my impression was that when asked it was made clear that the person in question was a student at NSA and while not technically a member of the congregation was most assuredly "one of theirs." Nothing unethical and no pretending that there was no connection to the best of my recollection.
6. Woefully, breathtakingly, unqualified to offer council? Sage advise can come from any number of sources. I very much doubt that his pastor offered up any that was bad. Heck, even I could make a few suggestions that the miscreant wouldn't go wrong by following.
7. And here we come full circle. Why would anyone feel particularly obligated to heed your "admonishment" with regard to this matter? Clearly you and your particular version of girl power Christianity will never mesh with the Kirk. Trying at every turn to tear it down utilizing innuendo, falsehoods, and misrepresentations doesn't come across as particularly Christ like either.
Thank you for the dialog and a pleasant afternoon to you,
g
----- Original Message -----
From: keely emerinemix
To: Sue Hovey ; g. crabtree ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Gary, you believe Sue engaged in character assassination and bigotry by asserting that Christ Church consists of a group of patriarchal men willing to tolerate, even protect, males in their congregation who are sexual predators. These are her words, not mine. I agree with her general point, but I don't really know how they would tolerate, even protect, another sexual predator. I only know how they acted when one was revealed. And so I'll propose a minimum standard for responsibly, Biblically, dealing with active sexual predators who rape children in the congregation and perhaps elsewhere.
1. Tell the police, which Wilson did.
2. Express horror, outrage, grief, and humility. The public face of Christ Church during this was defensive and arrogant; privately, on his blog, Wilson continued the usual scatological, snarky sarcasm that he trades in so richly. Remember the "youth minister" cartoon? In context or out, a real knee-slapper, that.
3. Then tell the mothers, who are usually the ones who would notice trauma-driven behaviors or odd physical changes in their children, and tell the fathers. Wilson didn't. The male heads of households were told; it was up to them whether or not to bring the information home to their subordinate wives.
4. Tell the community. Wilson didn't, even though the perp lived in Moscow and presumably emerged at some point from the Kirk social network.
5. Don't deny that he's "one of yours." Be honest here -- Wilson took pains to point out that the man was not an official member of Christ Church or Trinity Reformed. The man studied in the Kirk's New St. Andrews, attended weekly service at CC, lived in a Kirk family's home as a boarder in a program overseen by Kirk elders, came to Moscow to be part of Christ Church, and would have, prior to the crimes, been identified as a Christ Church kind of guy. I think that's what people mean and not the absence of official enrollment when they say he was "from Christ Church." I think that honesty about the man's connection to your church fellowship is what people mean by "ethical" and "straightforward."
6. As the justice system adjudicates the case, which it did here with surprising results, be available to comfort the families and minister grace to the offender. Wilson believes he did that. He also counseled the predator, something he is woefully, breathtakingly, unqualified to do.
7. Examine if there's anything in the pastor's teachings or beliefs that might encourage bad behavior or misapprehends the Scriptures and doctrines of the Church. In response to my admonishment that the Kirk elders do so, one of them, our pal Dale, simply responds by making fun of Tom Hansen. I think that wasn't quite what I meant by "sober reflection," and I'm pretty sure Christ didn't.
OK, gc . . . have at it, and have a lovely day.
Keely
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From: suehovey at moscow.com
To: jampot at roadrunner.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:26:16 -0700
A wildly reckless assertion!!! Character assassination and bigotry? Coming from you, Gary, I would call it displacement.
Sue H.
----- Original Message -----
From: g. crabtree
To: Sue Hovey ; keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
I defy you to provide even a shred of documentation for the wildly reckless assertion made in the final sentence of your post. It is my understanding that when evidence of misconduct became known within the "congregation" in question it was dealt with promptly and in an absolutely correct manner. To claim anything else is unsupportable character assassination and bigotry. It is also, unfortunately, par for the course with a certain group which prides itself on its unfailing tolerance.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Sue Hovey
To: keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Keely, I appreciate that you read Dale's blog and keep us in the loop. It's important we are called upon to remember a significant number of people in this community are willing to twist a tragic issue and use it as a bludgeon to attack those of us who define ourselves as liberal. I think we shouldn't be surprised this would be his issue now. He's representative of a group of patriarchial men, willing to tolerate, even protect, males in their congregation who are sexual predators.
Sue H.
----- Original Message -----
From: keely emerinemix
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Visionaires,
The Everlasting Blogstalker, Dale Courtney, laments today on his Right-Mind blog that Moscow's liberals are quick to jump on the bandwagon of disapproval of the recent revelations that young girls in the FLDS polygamist cult in West Texas are routinely forced into sexual relationships with older men who believe that these polygamous "celestial marriages" are essential to the practice of their faith, while remaining silent about things like young girls being forced to "marry" older men in some Muslim cultures. Dale believes that the shameful tolerance his liberal foes exhibit toward the behavior of some Muslims is hypocritical in light of their disgust over offshoot-Mormon group practices, and he, like a good "Christian" libertarian man of chest, must make note of it. It seems that we liberals just can't muster any disapproval of Islam, so busy are we, I suppose, hating groups that call themselves Christian.
Certainly Dale's worldview is energized by the thought that he and his pals are witnesses to the persecution of the Church from their vantage point of those suffering under it. It's a silly assertion, of course, as is his smug denouncement of feminized, morally bankrupt liberals who pick and choose their objects of outrage from a tortured position of ethical spinelessness. I am a liberal; I know of no one, liberal or conservative, who isn't disgusted by the reality of adult men who engage in sex with children. I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that religion excuses the horrors that men visit upon their victims, whether that religion is a perversion of Christianity or a perversion of Islam. Because most of the people I know are rational, decent people, they are angered by child rape and outraged that it can be, and is, committed as a sort of religious expression. Atheists and the religious are united in believing that no God would be honored by inflicting horror on the little ones he created.
I don't know if Muhammed had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl, as Dale asserts, just as I don't know if Joseph Smith slept with underage girls. My not being Muslim or Mormon, or part of any group that claims to be the "true expression" of either, has nothing to do with the sexual sin of the men each faith reveres as prophets. I am much more concerned about my own faith and the men who claim it, and who, as Christians, perpetuate patriarchy, hierarchy, power, manipulation and sexism in their homes, churches, and relationships. If, for example, there were a Christian church in town that had witnessed one or two specific instances of their men preying on young children or teenage girls, I would expect that that church would reflect on any connection between the rape committed by their young students of patriarchy and power, sexism and sexuality, and the practices and teaching that the predators received from their teachers. I would expect that that church would publicly repent of any gender-based arrogance, hierarchy, or wielding of power it had exhibited. I would hope that its leaders would examine a theology that has as its origin the reality of a post-Fall seizing of ungodly power and descent into violence, rather than the redemptive, radical justice and equality ushered in by the Savior they claim to worship. I would pray that such a church would see that its elevation of male power and privilege, its defense of patriarchy, its practice of gender hierarchy and unilateral submission, and its defensive clinging to the ways of the world and not the fruit of the Spirit are sinful, reflecting the depotism of evil and not the gentleness of Christlike love. I would expect that.
I would be disappointed.
And so I will lead the charge, if that is indeed what Dale's asking for, by announcing that this middle-aged, progressive, evangelical homemaker, and everyone she knows, thinks men who sleep with girls are evil. There. Now that the totality of liberal condemnation of rape and pedophilia has been thusly offered to this erstwhile elder, let's see if he and his other patriarchal heads of household pause and examine if the perpetuation of sexual violence on the weak in the name of religion has more to do with bad theology, teaching, and practice than with the perceived indifference of Moscow's liberals. It could be the start of an incredible spiritual renewal, revolutionary in scope and profound in effect. Or, Dale could just write this off as the emotional blather of someone who just doesn't know her place, a position that is probably a lot easier to undertake while enjoying the Sabbath with other puny patriarchs.
I guess we'll see . . .
Keely
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