[Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 15, Issue 168

Thu Sep 27 14:00:38 PDT 2007

If only more could have seen the world this way prior to (not really) electing our current administration into the highest form of our free government.  There was definitely a strong marketing of religious affiliation utilized to get elected that turned out to be complete lies and hypocrisy of the book touted as their guide.  Our own current government has committed the same travesties of which are quoted here as being of eastern nation acts but seem to be status quo lines of thought for evangelicals and other religious nuts right here.    

Think: illegal wiretaps, Patriot Act, Abu Gharib, etc times 1000 lies.

Think of our fearless leader at election time while reading these again:  

"Separation of church and state. The history of the world as we know it tells us of the disastrous inhumanity, cruelty, intolerance, suppression of personal liberty, and injustice that occurs when one or another set of religious beliefs are advocated and enforced by a government. But we need not depend on history for this lesson: newsreaders today can see the horrible results on personal liberty by the religious tyranny. 

"The greatest threat to personal liberty today are those organized religious movements who seek to impose on our freedom of thought, expression, and actions via political and governmental intervention in our lives."

to see if they seek to impose strictures based on their particular religious interpretations on the rest of us that would lessen our personal liberty.

Their leader and many of their upper echelon are now, in my opinion, liars, hypocrites, manipulators, blood-suckers from their congregation, and exceedingly unchristian, intentionally veering quite far from the basic, plain moral teachings of Christ found in the most historically accurate parts of the New Testament."
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Interesting Eyeopeners:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

What is it men cannot be made to believe!
-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)

> From: vision2020-request at moscow.com> Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 15, Issue 168> To: vision2020 at moscow.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:30:58 -0700> > Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to> vision2020 at moscow.com> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> vision2020-request at moscow.com> > You can reach the person managing the list at> vision2020-owner at moscow.com> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."> > > Today's Topics:> > 1. Re: Change of Perspective, Limited Apology (keely emerinemix)> 2. Re: Senator Larry Craig Challenges Guilty Plea (lfalen)> 3. Re: Change of Perspective, Limited Apology (donald huskey)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:16:12 -0700> From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Change of Perspective, Limited Apology> To: Kerry Becker <col.kerry.becker.ret at gmail.com>,> <vision2020 at moscow.com>> Message-ID: <BAY106-W5911C1593F14629B19A4B82B10 at phx.gbl>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"> > > I am deeply touched, Kerry, by your honesty and humility, and whatever any other disagreements we might have, or have had, you are a model to me of what it means to seek and walk in truth and conciliation. Thank you for your kind, wise, and prudent remarks. May God richly bless you, always.> > keely> > > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:37:10 -0700> From: col.kerry.becker.ret at gmail.com> To: Vision2020 at moscow.com> Subject: [Vision2020] Change of Perspective, Limited Apology> > Faithful Readers,> > I am now about to do something that is hard for anyone, but especially hard for an old soldier like myself. I admit that I have been wrong in some of the opinions that I have previously expressed on this forum.> > > Over the past several weeks I have been on an extended vacation during which I have visited many fellow officers with whom I have served during my career of thirty plus years in the military. Those with whom I visited are all, like myself, conservatives, and think of ourselves as libertarians. The defense of the freedoms guaranteed by our unequaled > U.S. Constitution was a main reason for many of us to chose careers in the military.> > Make no mistake. Do not be tempted to make any misinterpretation. In what I am about to say I having no intention of lessening my belief in freedom of speech, religion, press, etc. These freedoms make our great country truly unique. One need only look at the countries of our enemies to see how different they are from us in this regard.> > > Freedom of speech and the press are our main means to seek the truth in the complex world we live in. Anyone who expresses a belief of any kind does not enjoy any immunity from comment on the truthfulness or inanity of such expression. To allow immunity in any way would be to emasculate the pursuit of truth.> > > To make my point tersely. I have previously been a staunch supporter on this forum of Christ Church and its various personages and their actions. While I still strongly support their right to their beliefs and to the expression of their beliefs, I no longer am able support those beliefs themselves or the actions which are begot by such beliefs.> > > I have previously believed that Christ Church was a Godly institution which was trying to honestly bring goodness and Godliness into the world. I do not believe this anymore. > > I confess to two things that helped bring about this change of perspective.> > > First, every fellow retired officer with whom I visited on my vacation believed as libertarians in the separation of church and state. The history of the world as we know it tells us of the disastrous inhumanity, cruelty, intolerance, suppression of personal liberty, and injustice that occurs when one or another set of religious beliefs are advocated and enforced by a government. But we need not depend on history for this lesson: newsreaders today can see the horrible results on personal liberty by the religious tyranny enforced by many mid-eastern and eastern nations regardless of the name or nature of their particular religion.> > > My officer friends put it this way. "There greatest threat to personal liberty today are those organized religious movements who seek to impose their particular strictures on our freedom of thought, expression, and actions via political and governmental intervention in our lives." Those kind of actions by the government in England were the motivation for the founding of our country. Let us not forget that, ever.> > > This is hard for me to say. I have been wrong about homosexual practices and homosexual marriages or civil unions. While I personally find homosexual relations distasteful to contemplate, I see now the the choice of partners and pleasures is a matter of personal liberty guaranteed by the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as stated in our Declaration of Independence. I see now that I have no more right to dictate another's gender preference and the concomitant unions that might follow than I have to dictate what nail polish color someone might chose, whether such choice of color offends me or not.> > > > Second, my officer friends, who know naught of Christ Church, urged me to re-evaluate the statements of those opposed -- to try to find out for myself if those running Christ Church are honest and well-intentioned, and to see if they seek to impose strictures based on their particular religious interpretations on the rest of us that would lessen our personal liberty.> > > I have done so.> > I have found the statements of Christ Church as found in various of their writings show them to be dangerous theocrats who, among other greatly limiting things, seek to impose eventually the most harsh measures on all of us who do not share their beliefs. > > > Especially disturbing to a libertarian is their intention to impose the death penalty on those they consider heretical -- anyone who would criticize their particular religious tenets. This is America. Not Saudi Arabia or Iran. The denial of the right to question any belief is the most dangerous and arbitrary stricture a government can impose on its citizens. It is the denial to continue to seek the truth, wherever it might lead.> > > (God, this old soldier hates to say this since he has been so critical of some of Christ Christ's critics, and hates to admit that he has been hoodwinked due largely to his own ignorance and lack of diligence...) I have found that Christ Christ is neither a Godly nor a benevolent institution. Their leader and many of their upper echelon are now in my informed opinion, liars, hypocrites, manipulators, blood-suckers from their congregation, and exceedingly unchristian, intentionally veering quite far from the basic, plain moral teachings of Christ found in the most historically accurate parts of the > New Testament.> > > To the extent that my previous posts have defended Christ Church's right to hold and to defend their beliefs, I offer no apology. They, and all of us have that right. It is called freedom.> > To the extent that any of my previous posts have defended any particular tenet or theological aberration of Christ Church, or any of the many despicable actions that such have begotten, I humbly apologize for my previous ignorance, lack of critical thought and investigation, and for my unjustifiably overbearing attitude.> > > Kerry Becker> > > _________________________________________________________________> Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!> http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us> -------------- next part --------------> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...> URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20070927/3d401687/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:28:06 -0700> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Senator Larry Craig Challenges Guilty Plea> To: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>, vision2020> <vision2020 at moscow.com>> Message-ID: <b908b31f99d34a1f0d23e2077cf69f82 at turbonet.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"> > Ted> You make many good points. Crapo issued a news release today backing Craig's decision to not resign at this time.> I think the GOP leadership were a little to quick to dump on him.> Roger> -----Original message-----> From: "Ted Moffett" starbliss at gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:41:17 -0700> To: vision2020 vision2020 at moscow.com> Subject: [Vision2020] Senator Larry Craig Challenges Guilty Plea> > > All:> > > > In Minnesota, Larry Craig's attorney argued today before a judge to withdraw> > his guilty plea for the "disorderly conduct" misdemeanor charge that has> > hounded Craig. They argued, if I have this correct, that Craig pled guilty> > to conduct that is not a crime. It's like being charged with (my example)> > raping a manikin, and pleading guilty. The guilty plea can be withdrawn,> > because there is no law making it illegal to rape a manikin. The ACLU has> > filed a friend of the court brief alleging unconstitutional aspects of this> > case:> > > > http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/17/aclu.craig/index.html> > > > http://blog.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2007/09/craig_hearing_set_for_sept_26.html> > ---------------> > I think that arresting someone for Craig's conduct in this case is over> > zealous, and probably unconstitutional. Craig peered into a stall, bumped> > someones foot, and his hand came under the stall divider. This is> > disorderly conduct? Questionable. As to whether these actions implied a> > sexual advance, they probably did. But this is making inferences as to> > state of mind that are also highly questionable. There was no discussion of> > sex, in fact no discussion at all, no physical contact except bumping shoes> > (how often does this occur accidentally?), no notes passed under the stall.> > There are serious constitutional issues regarding making his conduct a> > crime, as the ACLU asserts, even if these actions implied a sexual advance.> > If Craig had pled not guilty odds are this charge would have been dropped.> > But avoiding publicity no doubt was uppermost on Craig's mind.> > > > The political and ethical charges of Craig's hypocrisy in promoting a> > "family values" agenda, while allegedly engaging in gay activity, are> > separate from the legal issues in this case. It could be argued that Craig> > is representing his constituency, which is his job, even if the agenda he> > promotes contradicts the ethical implications of his personal behavior.> > Almost all politicians face this ethical compromise. Craig did not force> > the voters of Idaho to vote overwhelmingly for a Super DOMA in 2006.> > > > Nonetheless, the shameless manipulation by the Republican Party of the> > sexual hysteria of the public regarding Gay behavior is a major issue that> > impacts this case politically. The Republican's didn't just throw Craig off> > the bus, they threw him under the bus, after his "disorderly conduct"> > charges became public. They want Craig to just go away quietly, no doubt.> > The threat of a Senate ethics investigation prompted by a misdemeanor> > disorderly conduct charge has almost no precedent, and might be an attempt> > to bully Craig into resigning:> > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/washington/05cnd-craig.html> > > > Investigating such a complaint, they warned, would draw the Senate into> > "reviewing and adjudging a host of minor misdemeanors and transgressions"> > even if "minor or professionally irrelevant."> > > > ---------> > > > Consider the approach taken to Senator Vitter, linked to affairs with> > prostitutes. If Craig had faced this problem, would the attacks against him> > have been so vituperative? Why should Craig be forced out of the US Senate> > for his conduct, and Vitter not? A married man having sex with prostitutes> > is morally superior to a married man having gay sex?> > > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296359,00.html> > > > Vitter, 46, apologized in July for committing a "very serious sin" and> > acknowledged his Washington phone number was among those called several> > years ago by an escort service run by Deborah Jeane Palfrey. The admission> > came after Flynt's Hustler magazine told the senator that his telephone> > number was linked to Palfrey's escort service.> > > > ------------------> > I hope Craig stays in the senate for the remainder of his current term, and> > resolves the case in Minnesota in his favor. The case in Minnesota involved> > over zealous police entrapment, possibly unconstitutional, as the ACLU> > alleges. And Craig remaining in the senate might temper the Republicans'> > manipulation of the public regarding Gay issues, while serving as a reminder> > to the public that the anti-Gay agenda of the Republican Party is shameless> > manipulation of the public's fears and anxieties.> > > > Ted Moffett> > > > > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 3> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:30:44 -0700> From: "donald huskey" <donaldrose at cpcinternet.com>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Change of Perspective, Limited Apology> To: "'Kerry Becker'" <col.kerry.becker.ret at gmail.com>,> <Vision2020 at moscow.com>> Message-ID: <004a01c8013c$ee897330$6501a8c0 at library>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > Dear Kerry Becker and Visionaries:> > > > Of the thousands of messages I have read over the years on V2020, none has> touched me as much as Kerry's. The grace, sincerity, and dignity he> exhibited in his email is an inspiration to me. Clearly, courage in the> face of the enemy doesn't stop when one retires from the military. Take> care of yourself, Kerry, and watch your back. After years of experience, I> can pretty accurately predict what will follow. A former military officer> from the Kirk will be assigned to you. You'll be invited to dinner, for a> beer, what ever. Then your minder will tell you how you have misunderstood> what you read, or how the "enemies" of the Kirk have tainted and> deliberately lied about Doug. Your minder will stay in touch for several> months, always being friendly, generous, and apparently "open-minded" until> he finally thinks you are beyond salvation, and then the personal attacks> will start. I have no doubt that you are more than capable of handling> them. Thank you again for your courage and integrity.> > Rose Huskey> > > > -----Original Message-----> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]> On Behalf Of Kerry Becker> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:37 AM> To: Vision2020 at moscow.com> Subject: [Vision2020] Change of Perspective, Limited Apology> > > > Faithful Readers,> > I am now about to do something that is hard for anyone, but especially hard> for an old soldier like myself. I admit that I have been wrong in some of> the opinions that I have previously expressed on this forum. > > Over the past several weeks I have been on an extended vacation during which> I have visited many fellow officers with whom I have served during my career> of thirty plus years in the military. Those with whom I visited are all,> like myself, conservatives, and think of ourselves as libertarians. The> defense of the freedoms guaranteed by our unequaled U.S. Constitution was a> main reason for many of us to chose careers in the military.> > Make no mistake. Do not be tempted to make any misinterpretation. In what> I am about to say I having no intention of lessening my belief in freedom of> speech, religion, press, etc. These freedoms make our great country truly> unique. One need only look at the countries of our enemies to see how> different they are from us in this regard. > > Freedom of speech and the press are our main means to seek the truth in the> complex world we live in. Anyone who expresses a belief of any kind does> not enjoy any immunity from comment on the truthfulness or inanity of such> expression. To allow immunity in any way would be to emasculate the pursuit> of truth. > > To make my point tersely. I have previously been a staunch supporter on> this forum of Christ Church and its various personages and their actions.> While I still strongly support their right to their beliefs and to the> expression of their beliefs, I no longer am able support those beliefs> themselves or the actions which are begot by such beliefs. > > I have previously believed that Christ Church was a Godly institution which> was trying to honestly bring goodness and Godliness into the world. I do> not believe this anymore. > > I confess to two things that helped bring about this change of perspective. > > First, every fellow retired officer with whom I visited on my vacation> believed as libertarians in the separation of church and state. The history> of the world as we know it tells us of the disastrous inhumanity, cruelty,> intolerance, suppression of personal liberty, and injustice that occurs when> one or another set of religious beliefs are advocated and enforced by a> government. But we need not depend on history for this lesson: newsreaders> today can see the horrible results on personal liberty by the religious> tyranny enforced by many mid-eastern and eastern nations regardless of the> name or nature of their particular religion. > > My officer friends put it this way. "There greatest threat to personal> liberty today are those organized religious movements who seek to impose> their particular strictures on our freedom of thought, expression, and> actions via political and governmental intervention in our lives." Those> kind of actions by the government in England were the motivation for the> founding of our country. Let us not forget that, ever. > > This is hard for me to say. I have been wrong about homosexual practices> and homosexual marriages or civil unions. While I personally find> homosexual relations distasteful to contemplate, I see now the the choice of> partners and pleasures is a matter of personal liberty guaranteed by the> right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as stated in our> Declaration of Independence. I see now that I have no more right to dictate> another's gender preference and the concomitant unions that might follow> than I have to dictate what nail polish color someone might chose, whether> such choice of color offends me or not. > > > Second, my officer friends, who know naught of Christ Church, urged me to> re-evaluate the statements of those opposed -- to try to find out for myself> if those running Christ Church are honest and well-intentioned, and to see> if they seek to impose strictures based on their particular religious> interpretations on the rest of us that would lessen our personal liberty. > > I have done so.> > I have found the statements of Christ Church as found in various of their> writings show them to be dangerous theocrats who, among other greatly> limiting things, seek to impose eventually the most harsh measures on all of> us who do not share their beliefs. > > Especially disturbing to a libertarian is their intention to impose the> death penalty on those they consider heretical -- anyone who would criticize> their particular religious tenets. This is America. Not Saudi Arabia or> Iran. The denial of the right to question any belief is the most dangerous> and arbitrary stricture a government can impose on its citizens. It is the> denial to continue to seek the truth, wherever it might lead. > > (God, this old soldier hates to say this since he has been so critical of> some of Christ Christ's critics, and hates to admit that he has been> hoodwinked due largely to his own ignorance and lack of diligence...) I> have found that Christ Christ is neither a Godly nor a benevolent> institution. Their leader and many of their upper echelon are now in my> informed opinion, liars, hypocrites, manipulators, blood-suckers from their> congregation, and exceedingly unchristian, intentionally veering quite far> from the basic, plain moral teachings of Christ found in the most> historically accurate parts of the New Testament. > > To the extent that my previous posts have defended Christ Church's right to> hold and to defend their beliefs, I offer no apology. They, and all of us> have that right. It is called freedom.> > To the extent that any of my previous posts have defended any particular> tenet or theological aberration of Christ Church, or any of the many> despicable actions that such have begotten, I humbly apologize for my> previous ignorance, lack of critical thought and investigation, and for my> unjustifiably overbearing attitude. > > Kerry Becker> > -------------- next part --------------> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...> URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20070927/e6e31ca0/attachment.html > > ------------------------------> > =======================================================> List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> =======================================================> > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 15, Issue 168> *******************************************
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