[Vision2020] discrimination and zoning (was say what?)
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Fri Sep 21 22:02:54 PDT 2007
"Do we just pick and choose which laws we would like to be enforced? Does the same go for breaking the law? Can I pick and choose which law I will break today? " Tom Ivie
Mr. Ivie, the police cannot enforce every single law on the books at all times. It is impossible. They have to prioritize their resources from murder to spitting on the sidewalk. That is the reality of the situation. I doubt you don't let little issues and problems at your work slip buy to concentrate on the bigger more prevalent issues at hand because you only have so much time, money, resources, and help to complete the tasks.
You do pick and choose which laws to follow with the understanding of the risk of getting caught and the penality involved. You might go 5 MPH over the speed limit, but not 25 MPH over, because you cherry pick the laws to break based on risk of getting caught and punishment for the violation.
Yes, we could make Moscow citizens poorer by taxing them more and giving more money to law enforcement so that they enforce more of the laws. However, making some Moscow residents poorer by taking more taxes away from them creates other problems for those you just made poorer.
If you want more police, fight for more jobs, industry, and lower housing, medical, and transportation costs, because that is what will give us the tax base for more police.
Best,
Donovan
Tom Ivie <the_ivies3 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Roger,
Didn't you want to be a "law maker"? Did you want to be in that position in order to make laws that would not be enforced?
You say, "Laws should generally be enforced." Generally?
Do we just pick and choose which laws we would like to be enforced? Does the same go for breaking the law? Can I pick and choose which law I will break today? I might think the seat belt law is not for me, but I still get a ticket for not wearing one.
Yet another argument FOR adding police officers.
lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote: Bruce
A few comments
Laws should generally be enforced. I think fireworks laws should be enforced, but they are not. It is sometimes not practical due to a shortage of enforcers and other reasons. Civil disobedience was about defying unjust laws. Donovan makes some good point. You covered some of them. But what about people who are poor and cannot afford the cost of housing. The only way they can make it is to pack as many people as possible into to a given living space. When I worked for Manna Pro in LA, we had employees from all ove the world who had 10 or so people in a single family dwelling or apartment. They were hard working folks, who as soon as they could improved their living conditions. I respect the rights of people who desire to live in areas that are zoned as single family residents. But at the same time some allowances should be made to accommodate people with limited means. I am sure this will get me in hot water, but I find in interesting that folks who claim to be for the poor
are
against stores that supply low cost products and make it hard for the poor to find housing that they can afford.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: jeanlivingston jeanlivingston at turbonet.com
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:43:07 -0700
To: "Donovan Arnold" donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "keely emerinemix" kjajmix1 at msn.com, lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com, "Tom Ivie" the_ivies3 at yahoo.com, "Moscow Vision 2020" vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] discrimination and zoning (was say what?)
>
> Donovan,
>
>
> The ordinance that defines the numbers of unrelated people who may
> live together in a home in a low density residential
> neighborhood applies to all people regardless of race. Minority
> status has nothing to do with numbers of people living in a house.
>
>
> For the most part, age, likewise, is not impacted. Nor are single
> moms affected. My elderly mother is related to me, just as a
> single mom's children are related to her. The ordinance addresses
> UNrelated people living together.
>
>
> Finally, my understanding is that group homes of unrelated, disabled
> or elderly people are exempted from the law. If my understanding is
> correct, and I don't have the citation handy, the state code allows
> (up to eight) elderly or disabled people to live in a group home as a
> family unit WITHOUT a Conditional Use Permit. This is as per Idaho
> code. Perhaps one of the City's legal eagles could fill you in on
> the specifics if you wantmore information on that.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original message-----
> From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:52:33 -0700
> To: keely emerinemix kjajmix1 at msn.com, lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com, Tom
> Ivie the_ivies3 at yahoo.com, Moscow Vision 2020 vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] discrimination and zoning (was say what?)
>
> > Keely,
> >
> > Sorry you are confused, but nobody is unaware of the current
> restrictions on occupancy. Your argument seems to be that the limiting
> of the occupancy is OK because it is the law, without looking at the
> validity of the reasons for establishing the law, and ignoring the
> injustices it causes as well as the restrictions on private property
> rights.
> >
> > The quickest way to eliminate minorities, elderly, single moms, and
> group homes for the disabled from being located in your upper class
> white neighborhood withoutexpressly prohibiting it in your
> neighborhood charter would be to prevent renting out homes and
> limiting the number of inhabitants for each unit, which if what the
> city council has done.
> >
> > It is obvious, that the only way many group homes, many minorities,
> single moms, and the retired living on limited income can afford to
> live in middle class neighbors would be if they shared the rent with
> several other occupants in a rented home.
> >
> > The reason for this law is to remove the five or six college
> students living in a neighborhood because many of them are not
> respectful or do not fit in with their family friendly neighbors. Home
> owners don't like that. I can understand that. But this law is
> discriminatory and keeps out lower income people that are a value to
> the community and add much needed diversity to the otherwise wealthy
> WASP family values neighborhoods.
> >
> > I think better enforcement of current laws are in order.
> However,Moscow is a college town. And while some student tear up the
> place, remember without the students Moscow would be a tiny poor
> farming town called Hog Heaven. They are the bread and butter for
> everyone on the Palouse.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > keely emerinemix wrote:
> > .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE:
> 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } Noise IS covered under an ordinance; other
> forms of illegal behavior under others. And the number of people,
> whether contemplative monks or hard-partying college boys, also is
> covered under ordinance. Has been for at least 15 years. That's
> because -- and it really IS this simple -- renting to non-family
> members constitutes running a business, one that the City has long
> decided is unlawful in areas zoned not for business, but for
> single-family homes.
> >
> > Period.
> >
> > Rocket scienceneed not be employed here, but I would invite doubters
> to remember the preschool lessons of "obey rules" and "break rules" if
> they're further confused.
> >
> > keely
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:38:43 -0700
> > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; the_ivies3 at yahoo.com;
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What? Discrimination
> > >
> > > It seems to me that controlling the number people that live in a
> house is a round about way of getting at the "stated problem"
> > > If noise is the problem regulate that. If parking is a problem
> regulate that. The only problem I see with the number of people living
> in one house would be a potential safety problem.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: Donovan Arnolddonovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:57:07 -0700
> > > To: Tom Ivie the_ivies3 at yahoo.com, Moscow Vision 2020
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What? Discrimination
> > >
> > > > Tom Ivie,
> > > >
> > > > Lowering the number of occupants per housing unit by law
> increases demand for more apartments and housing units, driving the
> cost up. With rents up even more, renters are further soaked again by
> limiting the number of people they can split rent with.
> > > >
> > > > Moscow is a college town. Students cannot afford much more that
> $300 piece for rent. IF Moscow raises its rents, the number of
> students returning to UI will reduce because they cannot afford to
> live in the city with no jobs and unaffordable housing. Many of them
> will elect elsewhere to attend like BSU, Albertson, NNU, ISU, LCSC or
> the new junior college in Nampa. But this is agood move for the
> socialists agenda of destroying the Moscow economy through relentless
> unneeded government regulation.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Donovan
> > > >
> > > > Tom Ivie wrote:
> > > > Doesn't it include a CUP process? As I understand it, and I
> could be wrong, lowering the number brings Moscow more in-line with
> the codified number that the majority of cities our size use.
> > > >
> > > > Donovan Arnold wrote: "These three people [(Pall, Ament and
> Lamar)] feel that counting unrelated people in a
> > > > dwelling will solve noise and parking problems in residential
> > > > neighborhoods."
> > > >
> > > > Mr. Busch is correct on this point. I think counting the number
> of unrelated people is discriminatory. When I worked at Inclusion
> Norththere were often several people with disabilities living in one
> home because they cannot afford their own place on a $660 a month SSI
> check, especially in a city like Moscow. There are many poor,
> disabled, and elderly people that MUST live together in one dwelling
> for economic survival. This code is a raw deal for those that are in
> need of affordable housing. Another example of elitist socialists
> trying to make everyone live like them regardless of their financial
> situations. The City Council members are saying, "Let them eat cake",
> or in this case, let them live in an apartment with only two people if
> they can only afford to live in an apartment with four others.
> > > >
> > > > And on the other side of the coin, a family of two adults with
> two teenagers can be very noisy and make life for their neighbors
> intolerable. Why not limit how many teenagers can live in one
> household, or how many babies a single mom can have? It would be just
> as unfair.
> > > >
> > > > An unjust law, clearly invented by people living in nice homes
> with secure incomes. I hope the newly elected city council will
> reverse this piece of discrimination.
> > > >
> > > > If Moscow would allow for the building of affordable housing for
> what people actually earn in Moscow we would not have 5 students or 5
> people on SSI living in one housing unit. And BTW, Moscow has more
> people per housing unit then any other city in the state according the
> BLS.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Donovan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tom Hansen wrote:
> > > > In a letter to the editor of the Lewiston Tribune, published
> today
> > > > (September 16, 2007), Steve Busch suggests that "enforcing
> existing law
> > > > [Moscow Zoning Code] is all that isnecessary."
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Comments made in a letter to the editor authored by local
> attorney Jack
> > > > Porter and published in the Sept. 12 Lewiston Tribune cannot be
> ignored. On
> > > > Sept. 4, the current city council voted 3-2 to change Moscow's
> city code in
> > > > an attempt to deal with a real problem.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, the majority (Pall, Ament and Lamar) threw the
> baby out with
> > > > the bath water. These three people feel that counting unrelated
> people in a
> > > > dwelling will solve noise and parking problems in residential
> neighborhoods.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Greater Moscow Alliance feel enforcing existing law is all
> that is
> > > > necessary. We said so in a letter presented to thecouncil on
> Sept. 10 (to
> > > > see a copy visit www.greatermoscow.org). Mr. Porter thinks this
> is evidence
> > > > the GMA is insensitive to Moscow citizens' cherished life style.
> Nothing
> > > > could be further from the truth. GMA is working hard to educate
> the public
> > > > about issues and candidates.
> > > >
> > > > I urge all Moscow voters to ask candidates for city council
> tough questions.
> > > > Listen carefully to the answers and vote your conscience.
> > > >
> > > > Steve Busch
> > > > President
> > > > Greater Moscow Alliance
> > > > Moscow
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Questions, Mr. Busch: How often, and how selective, should
> enforcement of
> > > > zoning codes be enforced? Instead of amending thecurrent code ad
> nauseam
> > > > and allowing for conditional use permits every time somebody
> violates
> > > > "existing law", should we draw the proverbial line in the sand,
> much like
> > > > the Raven, strongly proclaim "Ne'er more", and further demand
> that those
> > > > entities that are currently in violation of the zoning code move
> elsewhere?
> > > >
> > > > Reminder, folks!
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/36ghxk
> > > >
> > > > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> > > >
> > > > Tom Hansen
> > > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > >
> > > > "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The
> college
> > > > students are not very active in local elections (thank
> goodness!)."
> > > >
> > > > - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> > > >
> > >>
> > > >
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> > > > Tom & Liz Ivie
> > > > ---------------------------------
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