[Vision2020] Sub-minimum wage
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Sat Oct 27 14:08:20 PDT 2007
Joe,
I am sorry, but I don't think calling you Mr. Campbell, even if you don't like it, is belittling and/or insulting in any way. It is your name. It is not a nickname or name designed to bring you public shame. It may not be what you like to be called, but it isn't belittling either.
When Mr. Hansen calls me Arnold, rather than Mr. Arnold, it is annoying to me. But I don't think of it as insulting. Last names are what some people call people, like in the military. I don't like being called Arnold because it is also a given name, and my given name is Donovan, which is what I prefer. Annoyed, verses being belittled or insulted are two separate issues.
So the claim that Gary is belittling you by calling you by your sir name is a false premise because being annoyed and being publicly insulted are not synonymous.
Best,
Donovan
Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
I don't think it is a false dilemma, Donovan.
And I didn't say 'Mr. Campbell' was insulting. I said it was belittling. Crabtree
said that "To belittle is to insult no matter how you slice it," so it follows from
this claim that calling me 'Mr. Campbell' is insulting.
I don't like to be called 'Mr. Campbell.' I don't know why but I prefer to be
called 'Joe.' I told Crabtree this on several occassions and as far as I can tell
he insists on calling me Mr. Campbell because I don't like it. If I called you
'Donny Boy' and you told me you didn't like it and I persisted, what
conclusions would you draw about me?
But 'Mr. Campbell' is not an insult. People call me that all the time. It is clearly
belittling, though, if someone continues to call me that knowing that I have a
PhD. This is why I don't think you won the bet. It is belittling to continue to be
called 'Mr. Campbell' in the way that Crabtree does it but it is not insulting.
But if you did win the bet, then Crabtree belittles people -- me at least --
every single day. Thus, by his criteria, he insults people every day, all while
supporting the GMA. No GMA-conservatives call him on it. Ergo, ...
Do you see the point now?
If you still think it is a false dilemma, tell me where the flaw lies in the reasoning.
Best, Joe
---- Donovan Arnold wrote:
=============
Joe,
I think you presented a "false dilemma". Hansen's posts being insulting or not insulting are not dependent upon any previous post made by Mr. Crabtree.
On another note, why do you consider being called "Mr. Campbell" insulting?
Best,
Donovan
Joe Campbell wrote:
I responded to Donovan but neglected to hit 'reply all' so it is stuck in his mailbox.
The main point of that post concerns your quote:
"To belittle is to insult no matter how you slice it." -- Gary Crabtree
I think you're forced with a dilemma. Either you admit that the GMA is the party of hate
or you admit that Donovan did not win the bet.
If, as you suggest, belittling is insulting, then you insult people regularly. In every one of
your posts you belittle. At least this much is true: In every one of your posts to me, you
belittle me. Even in this post, where you're nice-on-the-whole, you throw in a 'Mr.
Campbell.' I've told you on a number of occasions that I don’t like that label yet you
persist. Maybe I'm soft and 'Mr. Campbell' isn't an insult. But there is no question that
you belittle me by calling me 'Mr. Campbell' and by your general comments about my
job as a philosopher -- which is really a criticism of the academy as a whole. If making
fun of someone's name and someone’s job is not belittling, I'm not sure what is.
If belittling is insulting, then you insult on an everyday basis. Given that you accept the
quote above, you seem to think insulting is fine, acceptable behavior. And so do the other
GMA candidates and members. None of them have mentioned that insulting my job,
calling me by a name that I don't like is insulting and beyond bounds. Thus, the GMA
thinks that it is fine to insult people as long as they don't share their political views.
This is just the politics of hate. If what you say above is correct, then the GMA endorses
the politics of hate -- the politics of Wilson, etc.
The choice is yours. Either what Hansen says was an insult, because it was belittling, and
Donovan wins the bet AND the GMA practices the politics of hate. Or what you said
was wrong, belittling is not insulting, and Donovan has not yet won the bet.
The choice is yours.
Best, Joe
---- "g. crabtree" wrote:
=============
But someone as rude and insulting as Mr. Campbell does? I guess there's no standard like a double standard.
But enough of this fractious back and forth, in the spirit of reasoned discourse as exemplified by Mr. Harkins and Mr. Livingston, I suggest that we abandon searching for differences and identify the small areas where our thoughts overlap. It appears that at the very least we are in agreement that the post that kicked off this "discussion" did contain a gratuitous insult to Mr. Arnold. From such an insignificant seed may future understanding blossom!
g
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Campbell"
To: "Donovan Arnold"
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sub-minimum wage
> Someone who is as rude and insulting as Crabtree has no right lecturing
> others. That was the point.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> "To belittle is to insult no matter how you slice it." -- Gary Crabtree
>
> ---- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> =============
> Joe,
>
> I think you are missing Gary's point. Hansen made an bet he would not insult people anymore. Gary never made that agreement.
>
> Best,
>
> Donovan
>
> Joe Campbell wrote:
> I just love how Crabtree is so quick to note insults coming from his opponents
> but so blind when he delivers them himself!
>
> The constant application of such double-standards and lack of self-awareness
> from the NSA/CC/GMA crowd makes me sick.
>
> Joe Campbell
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:32:44 -0700
> From: "g. crabtree"
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sub-minimum wage
> To: "Tom Hansen" , ,
> "'Donovan Arnold'"
> Message-ID: <03a901c81713$e8b8c5e0$6401a8c0 at gmc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Wiggle & squirm. An insult doesn't have
> to be something as blatant as "Gary, you
> ignorant slut..." To belittle is to insult
> no matter how you slice it. Don't worry,
> I don't think that anyone reading this
> will be surprised by your evasion. The
> surprise would have been had you not.
>
> g
>
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