[Vision2020] Water Concern?
Andreas Schou
ophite at gmail.com
Fri Oct 19 08:34:55 PDT 2007
Gary --
So, what you're saying is that the GMA candidates believe that there is a
serious problem with water usage in Moscow--they just refuse, on principle,
to do anything whatsoever about it?
-- ACS
On 10/19/07, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> To refer to Dan, Wayne, and Walt as the water wasting candidates is
> electioneering at its absolute worst. Clearly the guys are in favor of
> reasonable conservation measures and are as concerned for the future of
> Moscow as the candidates you so fervently support. They just don't use the
> issue as a bludgeon to force the community to conform itself to their
> preferred model. (with your candidates that appears to be Berkley circa
> 1968) So far your side has trotted out the "they hate kids" spiel and
> the "they want to flush our water down the drain" prevarication. What next,
> accusations of wife beating, treason, and a general contempt for apple pie?
>
> g
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com>
> *To:* Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com> ; vision2020 at moscow.com ; Jeff
> Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 18, 2007 11:38 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
>
> In part, Jeff says:
>
> | And frankly, I have not heard any of the statements you attribute to
> | Wayne Krauss, Walter Steed or Dan Carscallen. And if they did make
> | those remarks, please tell me where and when.
>
> For statements by your candidates, Jeff, if those statements already
> provided for you in this forum by David Johnson of the Lewiston Tribune, or
> the KLEW transcript, or the Daily News, all of which have already been
> provided to your candidates shame, why don't you look forward to the live
> recordings of their answers at the Chamber forum, all of which will soon be
> available on-line and on "you tube"?
>
> Since they've been recorded and will be placed on-line, it will be
> especially interesting to see how the GMA's water-wasting candidates try to
> deal with their insensitive and environmentally unsound theories, knowing
> that the flip flop is waiting to be recorded, too.
>
> I agree with you that all candidates, MCA-endorsed, GMA-endorsed, and Evan
> Homes (the independent candidate running on his own), believe that they are
> "for" the community, and so on and so forth. But the vision of all is not
> the same, and the vision of the GMA candidates -- Naylor Farms mine loving,
> all retail loving, water wasting candidates -- does not fit with Moscow.
>
> I am convinced that Linda, Aaron, and Tom are the best candidates. Of
> course, that is only my opinion. And though I was waiting to see what was
> up with Walter and Evan, and we at the MCA have not endorsed Evan, Evan's
> astute answers on economic development and water are convincing me that he
> is the better choice.
>
> Bruce
>
> P.S. Since I am not positive that the Daily News article, that included
> the candidates' water statements, had been presented on this forum, I will
> copy it here.
> Moscow City Council candidates dive into water issues
>
> Tara Roberts, Daily News staff writer
>
> Thursday, October 18, 2007 - Page Updated at 12:00:00 AM
>
> Moscow City Council candidates were divided on issues of water and
> economic development at the Moscow Chamber of Commerce forum Wednesday.
>
> Due to time constraints, the candidates were able to answer just three
> questions. Chamber board member Mark Loaiza, who is on the Palouse Basin
> Aquifer Committee citizens advisory board, asked the candidates to explain
> their views on water regulation in Moscow and what the city should do to
> sustain water resources.
>
> All the candidates voiced support for PBAC, but disagreed about whether
> Moscow is facing a declining water source.
>
> Four-year candidate Dan Carscallen said he does not believe there is a
> water supply problem, but the city should explore other water sources for
> when there is a problem.
>
> "We can't just be one-note on the water situation," Carscallen said. "I
> think it's been used as a way to stop growth in our city."
>
> Two-year candidate Walter Steed and four-year candidate Wayne Krauss
> agreed with Carscallen that there is no immediate emergency.
>
> Steed said he's seen conflicting statistics about the Grande Ronde
> aquifer, which serves as Moscow's primary water source. He believes
> engineers can find empirical evidence to show if there truly is a problem.
>
> Steed said he felt somewhat like he was talking "out of both sides of
> (his) mouth" by questioning Moscow's rising water rates. In his job as a
> consultant, he's encouraged other communities to raise their water rates.
> Still, he is concerned that people in Moscow cannot afford to water their
> lawns.
>
> Krauss also lamented the loss of green lawns in Moscow.
>
> "Folks, I'm tired of seeing all our yards just burned up, including the
> cemetery," he said.
>
> Krauss said there could be 200 years worth of water left in the aquifer,
> but the city should consider how it's "going to stabilize our situation." He
> questioned whether it is worth it to conserve water in Moscow when more
> water is being used in Pullman.
>
> Two-year candidate Evan Holmes said Moscow needs to protect its quality
> drinking water, calling it an essential part of the city's wealth.
>
> Holmes said he's not sure if more study into the aquifer situation is
> needed.
>
> "More conservation and more study doesn't necessarily yield more water,"
> he said.
>
> Holmes said the city should have a plan in place for another water source,
> such as a reservoir, and begin putting money toward it.
>
> Four-year candidate and current council member Aaron Ament said the city
> knows the water level in the Grand Ronde is dropping, which should be "a
> signal to conserve what we have."
>
> Four-year candidate and current council member Tom Lamar, who also is
> executive director of the Palouse-Clearwater Environmental Institute, said
> the city should be a good steward of water resources.
>
> "I think water conservation is critical," he said.
>
> The aquifer levels continue to drop even when the city uses less water,
> Lamar said. He encourages recovering water in reservoirs or rainwater
> catchment systems. People should not forget about surface-water resources
> such as Paradise Creek, and be aware of how they are affected by the city's
> stormwater and wastewater decisions.
>
> Four-year candidate and current council member Linda Pall agreed that
> water conservation is important. She said the city's conservation mechanisms
> are working well.
>
> "My issue with water is we have a limited supply, we don't know how much
> we have and our straw is taking out quite a bit from the aquifer right now,"
> she said.
>
> She said the city has a budget item for future studies for a possible
> reservoir.
>
> **
>
> Economic development
>
> Chamber of Commerce board member Gary Hagen asked the candidates what role
> the city should play in economic development.
>
> Pall reiterated her desire for a city economic development coordinator,
> which she tried and failed to have included in the 2008 city budget. She
> said it is important to have someone "take care of the follow-through for
> the city's economic development priorities."
>
> Ament said he supports the idea of a city development coordinator. He also
> would like to see the chamber reach out to a wider group, and more downtown
> businesses to join the chamber.
>
> "There is work to be done and I encourage the chamber in its outreach to
> our area's businesses," Ament said.
>
> He said economic development includes caring about public education, water
> resources and helping the city's existing tax base.
>
> Lamar said growth should focus on expanding the city's existing
> businesses. Business owners have told him they stay in Moscow because of the
> quality of life.
>
> He said the city needs a long-term vision for its economy.
>
> "I have a belief that a strong economy is dependent on a strong
> environment and a strong community," he said.
>
> Holmes emphasized economic stability, a key topic in his campaign. He said
> the city should focus on planning for growth in a way that isn't divisive or
> "willy-nilly."
>
> "Economic development doesn't really happen at the City Council level or
> at the voter level," he said. "It really happens when investors are willing
> to take risks on your city."
>
> Holmes said growth should not focus on retail, but retail should result
> from other types of economic development.
>
> On the other hand, Steed said Moscow needs to increase its shopping
> opportunities to make it more attractive to people.
>
> Steed said he sees the Latah Economic Development Council and chamber as
> marketers for the community. The city's role is to pass zoning laws, help
> existing businesses and bring in more businesses.
>
> Carscallen said the city should work in the background of economic
> development, applying its codes to businesses that want to locate in town.
>
> Krauss said the city should work on improving its economic image and
> assisting developers with their goals to locate in Moscow. Some people
> perceive the community as unwelcoming to businesses.
>
> "If that's a perception, why do we have it?" Krauss asked.
>
> **
>
> Public transportation
>
> The candidates were more in harmony on issues of public transportation.
> Forum moderator Mark Boehne asked what the city can do to improve public
> transportation.
>
> Several candidates commended the work of Tom La Pointe, director of Valley
> Transit.
>
> "I think the best thing we can do is whatever Tom La Pointe tells us to,"
> Carscallen said.
>
> Many candidates said the bus system has grown and will continue to grow.
> Ament said the city has increased its funding for Moscow Valley Transit over
> the past few years.
>
> "This is clearly something our community supports," he said.
>
> Ament and Lamar said they'd like to see funds generated to add a third
> route and increase the bus system's hours. Holmes said the city grant writer
> should put efforts toward finding funds.
>
> Lamar said it is vital to continue the Wheatland Express bus service
> between Moscow and Pullman, and Krauss said the city should consider
> utilizing the rail lines between the cities for transportation.
>
> Steed, who was a founding member of the Transportation Commission with
> Lamar, said the city should focus on "multimodal" transportation and connect
> sidewalks as well as support the bus system.
>
> Krauss also said the city should consider creating a trolley system, an
> idea he heard from Pall.
>
> Pall called the trolley idea "light, light rail" and suggested routes from
> the University of Idaho Administration Building to Friendship Square and
> from Friendship Square around the city to Mountain View Road.
>
> The trolley idea is a ways in the future, Pall said. If it is ever a
> reality, it will need the support of the UI.
>
> "We absolutely need their help and support to make public transportation
> work," Pall said.
>
> Other forums will be 11:30 a.m. Friday at the Best Western-University Inn,
> sponsored by the AARP, and at 7 p.m. Tuesday in the Moscow High School
> Auditorium, sponsored by the League of Women Voters and the Moscow-Pullman
> Daily News.
>
> *Tara Roberts *can be reached at (208) 882-5561, ext. 234, or by e-mail at
> troberts at dnews.com.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Harkins" <jeffh at moscow.com>
> To: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
>
> | If the facts are so readily available, please enlighten us all.
> |
> | I've read all the material from the last several water forums,
> | committees and so forth. There is certainly no consensus evident
> | from the materials I read. Do you have a particular source or
> | reference that would validate your statements?
> |
> | And frankly, I have not heard any of the statements you attribute to
> | Wayne Krauss, Walter Steed or Dan Carscallen. And if they did make
> | those remarks, please tell me where and when.
> |
> | You raise an interesting point about relations with Pullman and
> | tangentially with Whitman officials. I have visited with a couple of
> | elected officials from Pullman and from Whitman. It was made rather
> | clear to me that Pullman would have been delighted to talk with
> | Moscow officials about the various water issues and policies and
> | other matters of concern between our two communities. But, in their
> | mind, the contacts from our side have more or less poisoned that well
> | - when you threaten to sue your neighbors, when you interfere in
> | their activities, and attempt to coerce them to agree with you - it
> | does make it difficult to have a dialogue.
> |
> | Wayne Krauss, Walter Steed and Dan Carscallen are probably our best
> | choices for bringing reason and rationale to the political quagmire
> | we find ourselves in now.
> |
> | On the bright side, a change in our management may offer another
> | chance to revisit Pullman officials, to open some doors, to have some
> | conversations, etc. I suspect Pullman would be very willing to work
> | with us, but I am fairly certain they have no interest in working for
> | us. They are charting their own course - as is their right and
> responsibility.
> |
> | Please let me know if you can provide me with citations about the
> | statements you attribute to Walter, Wayne and Dan. Also, any new
> | studies that affirm your claims about the aquifer status and its
> | future would also be helpful.
> |
> |
> | At 10:10 PM 10/18/2007, you wrote:
> | >Jeff --
> | >
> | >You've confused opinions with facts.
> | >
> | >The GMA candidates have the right to whatever opinions they like. They
> | >can believe that it will be fine if we reach the bottom of the
> | >aquifer. They can believe that we can get water from elsewhere at
> | >reasonable cost. They can believe that we can negotiate with Pullman
> | >to keep them from depleting our shared aquifer at an unreasonable
> | >rate. All of these things are reasonable opinions.
> | >
> | >Wrong, but reasonable.
> | >
> | >The issue of whether we are depleting our aquifer at a rate greater
> | >than the rate of replenishment isn't a matter of opinion. It is a
> | >matter of fact. Similar, for instance, to the fact that the Earth is
> | >getting warmer. GMA can either provide its own peer-reviewed
> | >projections or start talking about the facts as they exist.
> | >
> | >Wishful thinking is not a water policy.
> | >
> | >-- ACS
> | >
> | >
> | >On 10/18/07, Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote:
> | > >
> | > > Gary, good to see your clear and concise comments making a
> difference.
> | > > Here are some of my observations.
> | > >
> | > > Ideologues are all around us in this region. They have no solution
> to
> | > > resolve the water issue (or much of any other issue) but they follow
> the
> | > > same tactic used since the creation of the MCA; fear, intimidation,
> | > > heckling and smearing are their tools. If you support an
> organization like
> | > > GMA, you are publicly chided for supporting candidates endorsed
> | > by them. In
> | > > other words, you don't know as much as the MCA people and therefore
> your
> | > > voices and your opinions don't matter.
> | > >
> | > > Frankly, all the candidates for city council seem to be honest,
> | > sincere and
> | > > interested in doing what they perceive to be the best things for the
> | > > community. But when the actions of supporters and/or candidates
> sense a
> | > > challenge to their "vision for Moscow", rather than debate the
> issue, they
> | > > turn on the candidate and chide them for their opinions. Wayne
> Krauss,
> | > > Walter Steed and Dan Carscallen are all honorable men. They have
> | > spent most
> | > > of their adult lives in this community. They have a right to be
> | > respected -
> | > > for their views, for their willingness to step up to the challenge
> of city
> | > > council and for their willingness to engage in honorable debate with
> | > > candidates that they don't agree with.
> | > >
> | > > In a similar vein, Linda Pall, Aaron Ament, Tom Lamar and Evin
> Holmes are
> | > > honorable folks. Most have spent a good portion of their adult lives
> in
> | > > Moscow and they should be respected for their willingness to serve
> our
> | > > community.
> | > >
> | > > To indict any of them for their opinions and views on a topic
> simply
> | > > validates that our citizens should not vote for the candidate the
> indictors
> | > > are supporting but should vote for the candidate being scalloped.
> Issues
> | > > and answers and policies such as the water question are founded
> first in
> | > > science. Let the science do the talking - report studies, provide
> links to
> | > > the scientific evidence, establish the proposition of your
> hypothesis and
> | > > then talk about strategies for solutions. It is "very difficult"
> | > to resolve
> | > > a problem with rhetoric and finger pointing (Joe and Bruce, you are
> | > > encouraged to think about this very carefully).
> | > >
> | > > This coming election will say a lot about our community and about
> the
> | > > future we chart for ourselves. It is time for the hand-wringers to
> move to
> | > > the sidelines. We need decisive, thoughtful and forthright
> leadership to
> | > > guide us through the challenges that lay ahead. Will we have a
> community
> | > > that can support our children and the children of our children?
> Will we be
> | > > able to welcome new residents with a bundle of opportunities that
> entices
> | > > them to stay or will we winnow them out - because they don't fit
> into our
> | > > lifestyle? Will we have the type of community that encourages
> | > entrepreneurs
> | > > to come here and risk their investment capital here or will we worry
> | > > ourselves to death over whether or not this business or that
> business is
> | > > "acceptable"? What I have learned from listening to the forums this
> past
> | > > couple of years is that even if Santa Claus wanted to move his
> operation
> | > > here, there would be at least a handful of people who would object
> to that
> | > > move.
> | > >
> | > > For my taste, it is time for a change in Moscow.
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > At 07:02 PM 10/18/2007, you wrote:
> | > >
> | > > Conservation can never be a bad idea but using the water issue as a
> club to
> | > > force other ideological visions on the community where they don't
> | > apply (big
> | > > box ordinances for one example) is disingenuous. I don't believe
> that the
> | > > GMA endorsed candidates are suggesting that we make a desperate
> attempt to
> | > > suck the aquifer dry before their terms expire. To suggest otherwise
> is
> | > > simply partisan politics at its worst.
> | > >
> | > > g
> | > > ----- Original Message -----
> | > > From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> | > > To: "'g. crabtree'" <jampot at roadrunner.com>; "'Joe Campbell'"
> | > > <joekc at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "'Mark Solomon'"
> | > > <msolomon at moscow.com>
> | > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 4:29 PM
> | > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
> | > >
> | > > >g -
> | > > >
> | > > > You suggested that perhaps none of the city council candidates
> have a
> | > > firm
> | > > > handle on the water situation.
> | > > >
> | > > > If this is true, wouldn't it be better advised to err on the side
> of
> | > > > caution?
> | > > >
> | > > > Both Lamar and Ament cited PBAC as authorities on the figures
> they
> | > > presented
> | > > > yesterday at the CofC Forum. Krauss cited "something [he] read
> | > > somewhere"
> | > > > and Steed simply wants to remove limitations and controls.
> | > > >
> | > > > Your thoughts?
> | > > >
> | > > > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> | > > >
> | > > > Tom Hansen
> | > > > Moscow, Idaho
> | > > >
> | > > > "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The
> college
> | > > > students are not very active in local elections (thank
> goodness!)."
> | > > >
> | > > > - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> | > > >
> | > > > -----Original Message-----
> | > > >
> | > > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [
> | > > mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>
> ]
> | > > > On Behalf Of g. crabtree
> | > > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:33 PM
> | > > > To: Joe Campbell; vision2020 at moscow.com; Mark Solomon
> | > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
> | > > >
> | > > > I assume the statement that includes "...regarding
> | > > > the upper aquifer which if continued to be pumped at current
> | > levels could
> | > > be
> | > > >
> | > > > in crisis as soon as 15-20 years from now." is couched that way
> to leave
> | > > > room for the obvious corollary?
> | > > >
> | > > > Could be 50-75 years, could be 115-120 years? Could be we really
> don't
> | > > know
> | > > > for sure? Could be that Krauss, Carscallen, and Steed have as
> firm a
> | > > handle
> | > > > on the water situation as any of the MCA candidates do.
> | > > >
> | > > > g
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > =======================================================
> | > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> | > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> | > > http://www.fsr.net
> | > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> | > > =======================================================
> | > > =======================================================
> | > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> | > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> | > > http://www.fsr.net
> | > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> | > > =======================================================
> | > >
> |
> | =======================================================
> | List services made available by First Step Internet,
> | serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> | http://www.fsr.net
> | mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> | =======================================================
> |
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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