[Vision2020] Water Concern?
jeanlivingston
jeanlivingston at turbonet.com
Fri Oct 19 07:56:46 PDT 2007
Accusing those who correctly chastise the ostrich-like, Alfred E.
Neuman "What me worry?" candidates sposored by the GMA, Gary asserts:
To refer to Dan, Wayne, and Walt as the water wasting candidates is
electioneering at its absolute worst. Clearly the guys are in favor of
reasonable conservation measures and are as concerned for the future
of Moscow as the candidates you so fervently support.
Condemning truthful, issue-oriented criticism as an attack, Gary then
suggests that Aaron, Evan, Linda and Tom want to turn Moscow into
Berkeley, 1968. "Electioneering at its worst"? Gary, if only
reality entered into your own version of electioneering.
You deny the water wasting label that your candidates volunteered to
assume.
I think it's very fair to characterize, as environmentally unsound,
policystatements opposing conservation as a bad idea because Pullman
isn't conserving.
According to the Daily News, Krauss "questioned whether it is worth it
to conserve water in Moscow when more water is being used in
Pullman."
Dave Johnson of the Tribune quoted Krauss as follows: "Krauss said.
'What I don't like, though, is the idea for us to try to save water
here in Moscow so it can be used downstream.' "
Likewise, concern that the cost of water is preventing folks from
watering their lawns sure sounds like a call to water our lawns more,
not less.
Johnson also quoted Krauss as saying: "We could have, at the least,
200 years of water left. ... But right now, folks, I'm just really
tired of seeing all our yards just burned up, including the
cemetery."
Noting that "Krauss also lamented the loss of green lawns in Moscow,"
the Daily News reported the same quote.
According to the Daily News, "Steed said he felt somewhat like he was
talking 'out of both sides of (his) mouth' by questioning Moscow's
rising water rates. In his job as a consultant, he's encouraged
other communities to raise their water rates. Still, he is concerned
that people in Moscow cannot afford to water their lawns."
Both papers agreed with the statement that all three GMA candidates
deny there is a water emergency, as I'm sure you do.
According to the Daily News, "Two-year candidate Walter Steed and
four-year candidate Wayne Krauss agreed with Carscallen that there is
no immediate emergency."
What does constitute an emergency? When the aquifers actually run
dry? Presumably,we agree that the aquifers are not yet "dry."
(Let's ignore, ostrich-style for the moment, that our upper aquifer,
the Wanapum, got depleted forty-some years ago and is on-track to do
it again). But suggesting that there's no emergency (because the
aquifers aren't dry, yet) ignores the decline that is patently
obvious to the folks who had to dig deeper wells at significant
expense lately. I'll bet the friends of mine who got stuck with a
$7,000 bill because they had to dig a much deeper well would disagree
about whether the Wanapum's decline is an "emergency" or not.
But in any event, I think it's fair to suggest that advocating for the
use of more water on lawns is not advocating conservation. And more
especially, opposing conservation of water simply because Pullman
isn't conserving water, is water-wasting environmental stewardship at
its worst.
Bruce Livingston
-----Original message-----
From: "g. crabtree" jampot at roadrunner.com
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:35:53 -0700
To: "Bruce and Jean Livingston" jeanlivingston at turbonet.com, "Andreas
Schou" ophite at gmail.com, vision2020 at moscow.com, "Jeff Harkins"
jeffh at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
> To refer to Dan, Wayne, and Walt as the water wasting candidates is
electioneering at its absolute worst. Clearly the guys are in favor of
reasonable conservation measures and are as concerned for the future
of Moscow as the candidates you so fervently support. They just don't
use the issue as a bludgeon to force the community to conform itself
to their preferred model. (with your candidates that appears to be
Berkley circa 1968) So far your side has trotted out the "they hate
kids" spiel and the "they want to flush our water down the drain"
prevarication. Whatnext, accusations of wife beating, treason, and a
general contempt for apple pie?
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce and Jean Livingston
> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com ; Jeff Harkins
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 11:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
>
>
> In part, Jeff says:
> | And frankly, I have not heard any of the statements you attribute
to
> | Wayne Krauss, Walter Steed or Dan Carscallen. And if they did make
> | those remarks, please tell me where and when.
> For statements by your candidates, Jeff, if those statements already
provided for you in this forum by David Johnson of the Lewiston
Tribune, or the KLEW transcript, or the Daily News, all of which have
already been provided to your candidates shame, why don't you look
forward to the live recordings of their answers at the Chamber forum,
all of which willsoon be available on-line and on "you tube"?
>
> Since they've been recorded and will be placed on-line, it will be
especially interesting to see how the GMA's water-wasting candidates
try to deal with their insensitive and environmentally unsound
theories, knowing that the flip flop is waiting to be recorded, too.
>
> I agree with you that all candidates, MCA-endorsed, GMA-endorsed,
and Evan Homes (the independent candidate running on his own), believe
that they are "for" the community, and so on and so forth. But the
vision of all is not the same, and the vision of the GMA candidates --
Naylor Farms mine loving, all retail loving, water wasting candidates
-- does not fit with Moscow.
>
> I am convinced that Linda, Aaron, and Tom are the best candidates.
Of course, that is only my opinion. And though I was waiting to see
what was up with Walter and Evan, and we at the MCA have not endorsed
Evan, Evan's astuteanswers on economic development and water are
convincing me that he is the better choice.
>
> Bruce
>
> P.S. Since I am not positive that the Daily News article, that
included the candidates' water statements, had been presented on this
forum, I will copy it here.
> Moscow City Council candidates dive into water issues
>
> Tara Roberts, Daily News staff writer
>
> Thursday, October 18, 2007 - Page Updated at 12:00:00 AM
>
> Moscow City Council candidates were divided on issues of water and
economic development at the Moscow Chamber of Commerce forum
Wednesday.
>
> Due to time constraints, the candidates were able to answer just
three questions. Chamber board member Mark Loaiza, who is on the
Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee citizens advisory board, asked the
candidates to explain their views on water regulation in Moscow and
what the city should do to sustain waterresources.
>
> All the candidates voiced support for PBAC, but disagreed about
whether Moscow is facing a declining water source.
>
> Four-year candidate Dan Carscallen said he does not believe there is
a water supply problem, but the city should explore other water
sources for when there is a problem.
>
> "We can't just be one-note on the water situation," Carscallen said.
"I think it's been used as a way to stop growth in our city."
>
> Two-year candidate Walter Steed and four-year candidate Wayne Krauss
agreed with Carscallen that there is no immediate emergency.
>
> Steed said he's seen conflicting statistics about the Grande Ronde
aquifer, which serves as Moscow's primary water source. He believes
engineers can find empirical evidence to show if there truly is a
problem.
>
> Steed said he felt somewhat like he was talking "out of both sides
of (his)mouth" by questioning Moscow's rising water rates. In his job
as a consultant, he's encouraged other communities to raise their
water rates. Still, he is concerned that people in Moscow cannot
afford to water their lawns.
>
> Krauss also lamented the loss of green lawns in Moscow.
>
> "Folks, I'm tired of seeing all our yards just burned up, including
the cemetery," he said.
>
> Krauss said there could be 200 years worth of water left in the
aquifer, but the city should consider how it's "going to stabilize our
situation." He questioned whether it is worth it to conserve water in
Moscow when more water is being used in Pullman.
>
> Two-year candidate Evan Holmes said Moscow needs to protect its
quality drinking water, calling it an essential part of the city's
wealth.
>
> Holmes said he's not sure if more study into the aquifer situation
is needed.
>
>"More conservation and more study doesn't necessarily yield more
water," he said.
>
> Holmes said the city should have a plan in place for another water
source, such as a reservoir, and begin putting money toward it.
>
> Four-year candidate and current council member Aaron Ament said the
city knows the water level in the Grand Ronde is dropping, which
should be "a signal to conserve what we have."
>
> Four-year candidate and current council member Tom Lamar, who also
is executive director of the Palouse-Clearwater Environmental
Institute, said the city should be a good steward of water resources.
>
> "I think water conservation is critical," he said.
>
> The aquifer levels continue to drop even when the city uses less
water, Lamar said. He encourages recovering water in reservoirs or
rainwater catchment systems. People should not forget about
surface-water resources suchas Paradise Creek, and be aware of how
they are affected by the city's stormwater and wastewater decisions.
>
> Four-year candidate and current council member Linda Pall agreed
that water conservation is important. She said the city's conservation
mechanisms are working well.
>
> "My issue with water is we have a limited supply, we don't know how
much we have and our straw is taking out quite a bit from the aquifer
right now," she said.
>
> She said the city has a budget item for future studies for a
possible reservoir.
>
>
>
> Economic development
>
> Chamber of Commerce board member Gary Hagen asked the candidates
what role the city should play in economic development.
>
> Pall reiterated her desire for a city economic development
coordinator, which she tried and failed to have included in the 2008
city budget. She said it is important to have someone"take care of the
follow-through for the city's economic development priorities."
>
> Ament said he supports the idea of a city development coordinator.
He also would like to see the chamber reach out to a wider group, and
more downtown businesses to join the chamber.
>
> "There is work to be done and I encourage the chamber in its
outreach to our area's businesses," Ament said.
>
> He said economic development includes caring about public education,
water resources and helping the city's existing tax base.
>
> Lamar said growth should focus on expanding the city's existing
businesses. Business owners have told him they stay in Moscow because
of the quality of life.
>
> He said the city needs a long-term vision for its economy.
>
> "I have a belief that a strong economy is dependent on a strong
environment and a strong community," he said.
>
> Holmes emphasized economic stability, a key topic in his campaign.
He said the city should focus on planning for growth in a way that
isn't divisive or "willy-nilly."
>
> "Economic development doesn't really happen at the City Council
level or at the voter level," he said. "It really happens when
investors are willing to take risks on your city."
>
> Holmes said growth should not focus on retail, but retail should
result from other types of economic development.
>
> On the other hand, Steed said Moscow needs to increase its shopping
opportunities to make it more attractive to people.
>
> Steed said he sees the Latah Economic Development Council and
chamber as marketers for the community. The city's role is to pass
zoning laws, help existing businesses and bring in more businesses.
>
> Carscallen said the city should work in the background of economic
development,applying its codes to businesses that want to locate in
town.
>
> Krauss said the city should work on improving its economic image and
assisting developers with their goals to locate in Moscow. Some people
perceive the community as unwelcoming to businesses.
>
> "If that's a perception, why do we have it?" Krauss asked.
>
>
> Public transportation
>
> The candidates were more in harmony on issues of public
transportation. Forum moderator Mark Boehne asked what the city can do
to improve public transportation.
>
> Several candidates commended the work of Tom La Pointe, director of
Valley Transit.
>
> "I think the best thing we can do is whatever Tom La Pointe tells us
to," Carscallen said.
>
> Many candidates said the bus system has grown and will continue to
grow. Ament said the city has increased its funding for Moscow Valley
Transitover the past few years.
>
> "This is clearly something our community supports," he said.
>
> Ament and Lamar said they'd like to see funds generated to add a
third route and increase the bus system's hours. Holmes said the city
grant writer should put efforts toward finding funds.
>
> Lamar said it is vital to continue the Wheatland Express bus service
between Moscow and Pullman, and Krauss said the city should consider
utilizing the rail lines between the cities for transportation.
>
> Steed, who was a founding member of the Transportation Commission
with Lamar, said the city should focus on "multimodal" transportation
and connect sidewalks as well as support the bus system.
>
> Krauss also said the city should consider creating a trolley system,
an idea he heard from Pall.
>
> Pall called the trolley idea "light, light rail" and suggested
routes fromthe University of Idaho Administration Building to
Friendship Square and from Friendship Square around the city to
Mountain View Road.
>
> The trolley idea is a ways in the future, Pall said. If it is ever a
reality, it will need the support of the UI.
>
> "We absolutely need their help and support to make public
transportation work," Pall said.
>
> Other forums will be 11:30 a.m. Friday at the Best
Western-University Inn, sponsored by the AARP, and at 7 p.m. Tuesday
in the Moscow High School Auditorium, sponsored by the League of Women
Voters and the Moscow-Pullman Daily News.
>
> Tara Roberts can be reached at (208) 882-5561, ext. 234, or by
e-mail at troberts at dnews.com.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Harkins"
> To: "Andreas Schou" ;
> Sent: Thursday,October 18, 2007 10:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
>
>
> | If the facts are so readily available, please enlighten us all.
> |
> | I've read all the material from the last several water forums,
> | committees and so forth. There is certainly no consensus evident
> | from the materials I read. Do you have a particular source or
> | reference that would validate your statements?
> |
> | And frankly, I have not heard any of the statements you attribute
to
> | Wayne Krauss, Walter Steed or Dan Carscallen. And if they did make
> | those remarks, please tell me where and when.
> |
> | You raise an interesting point about relations with Pullman and
> | tangentially with Whitman officials. I have visited with a couple
of
> | elected officials from Pullman and from Whitman. It was made
rather
> | clear to me that Pullmanwould have been delighted to talk with
> | Moscow officials about the various water issues and policies and
> | other matters of concern between our two communities. But, in
their
> | mind, the contacts from our side have more or less poisoned that
well
> | - when you threaten to sue your neighbors, when you interfere in
> | their activities, and attempt to coerce them to agree with you -
it
> | does make it difficult to have a dialogue.
> |
> | Wayne Krauss, Walter Steed and Dan Carscallen are probably our
best
> | choices for bringing reason and rationale to the political
quagmire
> | we find ourselves in now.
> |
> | On the bright side, a change in our management may offer another
> | chance to revisit Pullman officials, to open some doors, to have
some
> | conversations, etc. I suspect Pullman would be very willing to
work
> | with us, but I amfairly certain they have no interest in working
for
> | us. They are charting their own course - as is their right and
responsibility.
> |
> | Please let me know if you can provide me with citations about the
> | statements you attribute to Walter, Wayne and Dan. Also, any new
> | studies that affirm your claims about the aquifer status and its
> | future would also be helpful.
> |
> |
> | At 10:10 PM 10/18/2007, you wrote:
> | >Jeff --
> | >
> | >You've confused opinions with facts.
> | >
> | >The GMA candidates have the right to whatever opinions they like.
They
> | >can believe that it will be fine if we reach the bottom of the
> | >aquifer. They can believe that we can get water from elsewhere at
> | >reasonable cost. They can believe that we can negotiate with
Pullman
> | >to keep them from depleting ourshared aquifer at an unreasonable
> | >rate. All of these things are reasonable opinions.
> | >
> | >Wrong, but reasonable.
> | >
> | >The issue of whether we are depleting our aquifer at a rate
greater
> | >than the rate of replenishment isn't a matter of opinion. It is a
> | >matter of fact. Similar, for instance, to the fact that the Earth
is
> | >getting warmer. GMA can either provide its own peer-reviewed
> | >projections or start talking about the facts as they exist.
> | >
> | >Wishful thinking is not a water policy.
> | >
> | >-- ACS
> | >
> | >
> | >On 10/18/07, Jeff Harkins wrote:
> | > >
> | > > Gary, good to see your clear and concise comments making a
difference.
> | > > Here are some of my observations.
> | > >
> |> > Ideologues are all around us in this region. They have no
solution to
> | > > resolve the water issue (or much of any other issue) but they
follow the
> | > > same tactic used since the creation of the MCA; fear,
intimidation,
> | > > heckling and smearing are their tools. If you support an
organization like
> | > > GMA, you are publicly chided for supporting candidates
endorsed
> | > by them. In
> | > > other words, you don't know as much as the MCA people and
therefore your
> | > > voices and your opinions don't matter.
> | > >
> | > > Frankly, all the candidates for city council seem to be
honest,
> | > sincere and
> | > > interested in doing what they perceive to be the best things
for the
> | > > community. But when the actions of supporters and/or
candidates sense a
> | > > challenge to their"vision for Moscow", rather than debate the
issue, they
> | > > turn on the candidate and chide them for their opinions. Wayne
Krauss,
> | > > Walter Steed and Dan Carscallen are all honorable men. They
have
> | > spent most
> | > > of their adult lives in this community. They have a right to
be
> | > respected -
> | > > for their views, for their willingness to step up to the
challenge of city
> | > > council and for their willingness to engage in honorable
debate with
> | > > candidates that they don't agree with.
> | > >
> | > > In a similar vein, Linda Pall, Aaron Ament, Tom Lamar and Evin
Holmes are
> | > > honorable folks. Most have spent a good portion of their adult
lives in
> | > > Moscow and they should be respected for their willingness to
serve our
> | > > community.
> | >>
> | > > To indict any of them for their opinions and views on a topic
simply
> | > > validates that our citizens should not vote for the candidate
the indictors
> | > > are supporting but should vote for the candidate being
scalloped. Issues
> | > > and answers and policies such as the water question are
founded first in
> | > > science. Let the science do the talking - report studies,
provide links to
> | > > the scientific evidence, establish the proposition of your
hypothesis and
> | > > then talk about strategies for solutions. It is "very
difficult"
> | > to resolve
> | > > a problem with rhetoric and finger pointing (Joe and Bruce,
you are
> | > > encouraged to think about this very carefully).
> | > >
> | > > This coming election will say a lot about our community and
about the
> | > >future we chart for ourselves. It is time for the hand-wringers
to move to
> | > > the sidelines. We need decisive, thoughtful and forthright
leadership to
> | > > guide us through the challenges that lay ahead. Will we have a
community
> | > > that can support our children and the children of our
children? Will we be
> | > > able to welcome new residents with a bundle of opportunities
that entices
> | > > them to stay or will we winnow them out - because they don't
fit into our
> | > > lifestyle? Will we have the type of community that encourages
> | > entrepreneurs
> | > > to come here and risk their investment capital here or will we
worry
> | > > ourselves to death over whether or not this business or that
business is
> | > > "acceptable"? What I have learned from listening to the forums
this past
> | > > couple of yearsis that even if Santa Claus wanted to move his
operation
> | > > here, there would be at least a handful of people who would
object to that
> | > > move.
> | > >
> | > > For my taste, it is time for a change in Moscow.
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > At 07:02 PM 10/18/2007, you wrote:
> | > >
> | > > Conservation can never be a bad idea but using the water issue
as a club to
> | > > force other ideological visions on the community where they
don't
> | > apply (big
> | > > box ordinances for one example) is disingenuous. I don't
believe that the
> | > > GMA endorsed candidates are suggesting that we make a
desperate attempt to
> | > > suck the aquifer dry before their terms expire. To suggest
otherwise is
> | > > simply partisan politics at its worst.
> | > >
> |> > g
> | > > ----- Original Message -----
> | > > From: "Tom Hansen"
> | > > To: "'g. crabtree'" ; "'Joe Campbell'"
> | > > ; ; "'Mark Solomon'"
> | > >
> | > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 4:29 PM
> | > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
> | > >
> | > > >g -
> | > > >
> | > > > You suggested that perhaps none of the city council
candidates have a
> | > > firm
> | > > > handle on the water situation.
> | > > >
> | > > > If this is true, wouldn't it be better advised to err on the
side of
> | > > > caution?
> | > > >
> | > > > BothLamar and Ament cited PBAC as authorities on the figures
they
> | > > presented
> | > > > yesterday at the CofC Forum. Krauss cited "something [he]
read
> | > > somewhere"
> | > > > and Steed simply wants to remove limitations and controls.
> | > > >
> | > > > Your thoughts?
> | > > >
> | > > > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> | > > >
> | > > > Tom Hansen
> | > > > Moscow, Idaho
> | > > >
> | > > > "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.
The college
> | > > > students are not very active in local elections (thank
goodness!)."
> | > > >
> | > > > - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> | > > >
> | > > > -----Original Message-----
> | > > >
> | > > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [
> | > > mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> | > > > On Behalf Of g. crabtree
> | > > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:33 PM
> | > > > To: Joe Campbell; vision2020 at moscow.com; Mark Solomon
> | > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
> | > > >
> | > > > I assume the statement that includes "...regarding
> | > > > the upper aquifer which if continued to be pumped at current
> | > levels could
> | > > be
> | > > >
> | > > > in crisis as soon as 15-20 years from now." is couched that
way to leave
> | > > > room for the obvious corollary?
> | > > >
> | > > > Could be 50-75 years, could be 115-120 years? Could be we
really don't
> | > > know
>| > > > for sure? Could be that Krauss, Carscallen, and Steed have as
firm a
> | > > handle
> | > > > on the water situation as any of the MCA candidates do.
> | > > >
> | > > > g
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > =======================================================
> | > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> | > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> | > > http://www.fsr.net
> | > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> | > > =======================================================
> | > > =======================================================
> | > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> | > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> |> > http://www.fsr.net
> | > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> | > > =======================================================
> | > >
> |
> | =======================================================
> | List services made available by First Step Internet,
> | serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> | http://www.fsr.net
> | mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> | =======================================================
> |
>
>
>
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