[Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?

[lfalen]

Ted
Terrorism is not just the intent to kill. It is anything that is intended to terrorise, intimidate or to make them fearful. Arson in that context is terrorism.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: "Ted Moffett" starbliss at gmail.com
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:37:21 -0700
To: "Kai Eiselein, editor" editor at lataheagle.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?

> Kai et. al.
> 
> Kai, you are not addressing the central theme of this thread that Paul
> started, which I specifically addressed in my reply to his post.
> 
> Anyway, I think it is questionable to label a group "terrorist" for arson
> when steps were taken to avoid deaths... The killing of civilians for
> political reasons is the short definition of "terrorism," and I do not
> accept that arson, especially when the evidence indicates the arsonists took
> steps to avoid deaths, should be labeled as "terrorism."  If someone trys to
> take down an airliner loaded with passengers, plants a bomb in a crowded
> bus, burns down a building full of people after chaining the exit doors
> shut... This is terrorism.
> 
> But I have no axe to grind on the issue of "eco-terrorism."  There may very
> well be examples of civilians killed by environmental groups for political
> purposes.  I only asked for examples.  And for you explain why such groups
> should be labeled "on the left," given whatever definition of "left" you are
> using.
> 
> So you want to define the ELF arson as a terrorist attack, given the
> possibility that someone may have been killed (proving they were "willing to
> kill?"), even when it appeared they tried to avoid deaths, and no deaths
> occurred?  Well, OK.  I just don't think this arson clearly indicates the
> "willingness to kill" you mention.  There appeared in fact to not be a
> willingness to kill.
> 
> I do not understand what "nerve" you thought you had struck, unless its the
> nerve (actually, billions of neurons) that asks for reasonable evidence for
> extraordinary claims, before accepting the claims, like the
> extraordinary claim that the Bible or the Koran is the literal absolute word
> of the one creator of the universe.
> 
> Ted Moffett
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/1/07, Kai Eiselein, editor <editor at lataheagle.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Ted, since the ALF opposes hunting it can be considered an extremist
> > environmental group. It has, in fact, worked in tandem with ELF.
> > I stated *"Anyone who is willing to torch a building is willing to killanyone inside
> > *."
> > I also stated " *Most notably on the left are extremist environmental
> > groups that engage in eco-terrorism. Using Dawkins line of reasoning, anyone
> > who is environmentaly friendly could be seen assupportive of eco-terrorism.
> > Any belief, taken too far, can result in fanatical zealots willing to killanyone opposed to their viewpoint."
> > *
> > Nowhere in my post did I state anyone did kill, just the willingness to do
> > so as evidenced by their actions.
> > I'm not the one pulling the switcheroo, you are.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > *From:* Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
> > *To:* Kai Eiselein, editor <editor at lataheagle.com>
> > *Cc:* Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com> ; Paul Rumelhart<godshatter at yahoo.com>;
> > Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >  *Sent:* Monday, October 01, 2007 4:48 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?
> >
> >
> >
> > Kai et. al.
> >
> > I think your focus on environmental terrorism is off the main topic of
> > this thread, but I will pursue your line of reasoning just a bit, before
> > asking you to address my point, made earlier in this thread, that was on
> > topic.
> >
> > I am asking for your documentation of deaths committed by environmental
> > groups in "terrorist" attacks, because I question the veracity of this claim
> > that you made.  The ALF is not an environmental group.  The Earth Liberation
> > Front is an environmental group.
> >
> > I have not found any documentation that the Earth Liberation Front has
> > killed anyone in a terrorist attack.
> >
> > So I am still asking for your documentation....Given you made the claim,
> > you should have an example at hand.  Asking someone else to prove your point
> > with evidence seems rather lame.
> >
> > If you cannot provide it, then just say you cannot provide it...You may
> > have good evidence to support your claim.  Please offer it.
> >
> > However, if you really want a logical and fact based dialog on the
> > critical focus of this thread, clearly stated by Paul when he started this
> > thread, regarding religious belief promoting extremism, then respond to my
> > post where I raise the specific example of people who promote the idea that
> > the Bible or the Koran is the literal absolute word of the creator of the
> > universe, with very questionable evidence this is true, and act on this
> > belief in extreme ways.  I can list numerous examples of those who insist
> > the Bible or the Koran contains the literal word of the creator of the
> > universe, and use this belief to justify numerous ethical harms: oppression
> > of women, prejudice against gays, corporal punishment of children, human
> > rights violating applications of the death penalty, to name a few.
> >
> > It seems you are trying to "bait and switch" in this thread, by focusing
> > on what you call "environmental terrorism," without being willing to
> > document your implication that deaths occurred in such attacks, while
> > ignoring my point about terrorism resulting in deaths committed by religious
> > extremists who use their absolute belief in the literal word of God as
> > contained in the Bible or Koran, as justification.
> >
> > I will document my claim that people who insist the Bible or the Koran is
> > the literal word of the creator of the universe, sometimes follow this
> > belief resulting in extreme terrorist acts... Or have you forgotten 9/11?
> >
> > Ted Moffett
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/1/07, Kai Eiselein, editor <editor at lataheagle.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Ted,
> > > I can't believe you've never heard of the Animal Liberation Front (ALF)
> > > or the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), both of which engage in attacks against
> > > entities they disagree with.  Perhaps you've forgotten the string of arsons
> > > that took place from the 90's and into 2001 in Oregon and Washington in
> > > which the ELF claimed responsibility? Or the arrests in 2006 of several
> > > members of ELF in connection with those arsons? Anyone who is willing to
> > > torch a building is willing to kill anyone inside.
> > > I must have struck a nerve, since you are making demands rather than
> > > engaging in debate. From your posts about global warming, typhoons and such,
> > > I know you are perfectly capable of finding information on the web. Quit
> > > feigning ignorance/stupidity, it doesn't become you.
> > > I'll not waste my time digging up information that has been well
> > > publicized and is readily available  just because you demand it.
> > > Debate is the art of point-counter point, Ted. Not demand, counter
> > > demand.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
> > > *To:* Kai Eiselein, editor <editor at lataheagle.com>
> > > *Cc:* Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com> ; Paul Rumelhart<godshatter at yahoo.com>;
> > > Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > *Sent:* Monday, October 01, 2007 12:19 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  Kai et. al.
> > >
> > > Will you please offer examples of what you call "eco-terrorism," engaged
> > > in by what you described as "on the left are extremist environmental
> > > groups," that have resulted in deliberately caused deaths by "fanatics
> > > willing to kill," as you phrased it, such as a terrorist bombing (a road
> > > side IED, or a car bomb, truck bomb, or bombing of a train or bus, etc.) of
> > > civilians would inflict?  This is a very serious charge, that should not be
> > > made casually...  I am not saying there are not examples of this, just
> > > asking you to provide well founded empirical documentation.
> > > Please provide the name of the environmental group, document their
> > > affiliation with what you termed "the left" (please explain how you
> > > define "the left," and why they represent "the left," rather than just "left
> > > field"), and the date and details of the terrorist attack.
> > >
> > > Ted Moffett
> > > ----
> > > Kai wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >  Most notably on the left are
> > > > extremist environmental groups that engage in eco-terrorism. Using
> > > > Dawkins
> > > > line of reasoning, anyone who is environmentaly friendly could be seen
> > > > as
> > > > supportive of eco-terrorism.
> > > > Any belief, taken too far, can result in fanatical zealots willing to
> > > > kill
> > > > anyone opposed to their viewpoint.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
>