[Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?

[Sunil Ramalingam]

When someone is killed in an arson fire, yes, the arsonist can be charged 
with muder, not because they intended to kill, but because their separate 
criminal crime resulted in death.  That still doesn't mean the arsonist had 
the intent to kill.

You're playing What If, not me.  You want to say they have the intent to 
kill, fine.  That doesn't make it so.  You started by talking about intent, 
and now have moved to outcomes.  I don't have a problem with someone being 
on the hook for the outcome of their actions.  But that's a separate matter 
from their intent.

Someone can do something wrong-headed and illegal without having the intent 
to kill.  If you want to say that 'ecoterrorists' are willing to kill, seems 
to me that's because you want to put them in that box for your own reasons.

Sunil


>From: "Kai Eiselein, editor" <editor at lataheagle.com>
>To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>CC: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?
>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:39:06 -0700
>
>So we go into the "what ifs"
>What if a custodian or another employee had been working late?
>Sure, maybe someone scouted the place out before hand, recorded the times 
>people came and left. But there is always that chance that someone inside 
>had a change of plans.
>Then again, there are the firefighters, you know, the people that go inside 
>a burning building to make sure no one is inside. What if the building 
>collapses on them?
>Firefighters have been killed at intentionaly set fires, Sunil. Even if no 
>one was inside the building at the time the fire was set, there is still a 
>chance that a firefighter could be killed. If one is willing to burn a 
>building, one is willing to kill.
Anyone who is willing to torch a building is willing to kill anyone inside.
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sunil Ramalingam" 
><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:17 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?
>
>
>>Kai,
>>
>>If my memory serves, most of those arsons took place at night, when the
>>buildings were unoccupied.  You make a big leap when you say "Anyone who 
>>is
>>willing to torch a building is willing to kill anyone inside."  If that 
>>were
>>the case, wouldn't they burn them down in the daytime when labs and
>>businesses were occupied?
>>
>>I'm not condoning or defending arson or the tactics you describe below.  I
>>just don't agree with your premise.  Just because someone commits some bad
>>acts does not mean they're willing to kill.
>>
>>Sunil
>>
>>
>>>From: "Kai Eiselein, editor" <editor at lataheagle.com>
>>>To: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>
>>>CC: Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?
>>>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:16:47 -0700
>>>
>>>Ted,
>>>I can't believe you've never heard of the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) 
>>>or
>>>the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), both of which engage in attacks against
>>>entities they disagree with.  Perhaps you've forgotten the string of 
>>>arsons
>>>that took place from the 90's and into 2001 in Oregon and Washington in
>>>which the ELF claimed responsibility? Or the arrests in 2006 of several
>>>members of ELF in connection with those arsons? Anyone who is willing to
>>>torch a building is willing to kill anyone inside.
>>>I must have struck a nerve, since you are making demands rather than
>>>engaging in debate. From your posts about global warming, typhoons and
>>>such, I know you are perfectly capable of finding information on the web.
>>>Quit feigning ignorance/stupidity, it doesn't become you.
>>>I'll not waste my time digging up information that has been well 
>>>publicized
>>>and is readily available  just because you demand it.
>>>Debate is the art of point-counter point, Ted. Not demand, counter 
>>>demand.
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>   From: Ted Moffett
>>>   To: Kai Eiselein, editor
>>>   Cc: Andreas Schou ; Paul Rumelhart ; Vision2020
>>>   Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:19 PM
>>>   Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Kai et. al.
>>>
>>>   Will you please offer examples of what you call "eco-terrorism," 
>>>engaged
>>>in by what you described as "on the left are extremist environmental
>>>groups," that have resulted in deliberately caused deaths by "fanatics
>>>willing to kill," as you phrased it, such as a terrorist bombing (a road
>>>side IED, or a car bomb, truck bomb, or bombing of a train or bus, etc.) 
>>>of
>>>civilians would inflict?  This is a very serious charge, that should not 
>>>be
>>>made casually..  I am not saying there are not examples of this, just
>>>asking you to provide well founded empirical documentation.  Please 
>>>provide
>>>the name of the environmental group, document their affiliation with what
>>>you termed "the left" (please explain how you define "the left," and why
>>>they represent "the left," rather than just "left field"), and the date 
>>>and
>>>details of the terrorist attack.
>>>
>>>   Ted Moffett
>>>   ----
>>>   Kai wrote:
>>>
>>>      Most notably on the left are
>>>     extremist environmental groups that engage in eco-terrorism. Using
>>>Dawkins
>>>     line of reasoning, anyone who is environmentaly friendly could be 
>>>seen
>>>as
>>>     supportive of eco-terrorism.
>>>     Any belief, taken too far, can result in fanatical zealots willing 
>>>to
>>>kill
>>>     anyone opposed to their viewpoint.
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>