[Vision2020] boycotting & religion

[Paul Rumelhart]

I apologize if I was misinterpreting what you were saying.  However, I 
wasn't trying to paint you as the person in charge of boycotting.  You 
brought the subject up, I ran with it.  Perhaps because I started the 
message off with your name you took it to mean that I was accusing you 
of this.  Rereading the second paragraph in my first reply, I can see 
how you could take that as a personal attack.  I was just off on a rant 
against people who boycott places or call for the same, not necessarily 
you.  I didn't mean to imply that you were the one behind the whole 
boycotting affair.  My fault for not being clear.

The point that I'm trying to be clear on is that all religious groups or 
individuals should be able to believe as they wish - not that they 
should be able to believe as they wish as long as they don't upset 
anybody else with their beliefs.  I don't care if they believe in human 
sacrifice.  All I care about is that they don't actually break the law.  
While I believe that everyone should be able to choose whom to give 
their money to, I don't like the practice of avoiding businesses whose 
employees don't agree with you religiously or politically.

Take the role of women in Christ Church as one example.  I've had many 
discussions on this topic with my friend who is a Christ Church member.  
I don't agree with him, but I see how he has biblically derived it.  
I've also heard him say how the women in his church have bought into the 
whole concept and are behind it.  Who am I to condemn this?  Now, if it 
turns out that women are forcefully being kept in the church against 
their will - then I hope the people responsible see prison time.  If 
they don't want to leave the church because they don't want to face 
their family's disappointment or they fear being disowned by them, 
that's one thing.  If they have been threatened with bodily harm or 
something, then that's something else and should be investigated.  In 
that case, a law has been broken.

I would be happy to meet with you sometime.  We don't even have to 
discuss this topic or even Christ Church.  I think you are a very nice 
person and one worthy of respect, and I'm sorry if you think I'm 
attacking you personally.  You are a flash of light that often shines 
upon a sometimes very dark mailing list.  I look forward to all your 
emails.  I just don't always agree with you.

Also, my email has been really slow going out to the list.  I don't know 
why, I suspect that yahoo is having problems.

Paul

keely emerinemix wrote:
> Huh.  For whatever reason, I never saw Paul's email to me and so I'm a 
> little late in responding. 
>
> I appreciate Joe's words of defense, and I would point out that I have 
> never organized a boycott, encouraged a boycott, or justified the 
> distribution of a boycott list while  on company time.  I have chosen 
> not to shop at Christ Church congregant-owned businesses, yes, and I 
> vehemently disagree with the characterization that not shopping at 
> places that support, financially and ideologically, the work of a man 
> like Doug Wilson is "Nazi-like."  That's it for Keely and The Boycott.
>
> Again, when a Trinitarian, conservative evangelical chooses not to 
> support businesses owned by Trinitarian conservatives, it isn't about 
> religion.  It's about behavior, much of which is odious and more so 
> because it is cloaked in religion.  I can't seem to make this point 
> clearly enough, and so I have to assume that those who don't 
> understand it simply choose not to.  I feel enormous sympathy for 
> those in the Kirk who are swept up in its machinations and feel unable 
> to leave; if I knew someone, some local business owner, who was in 
> that position, I would go out of my way to help them.  But those who 
> choose to stay in the Wilsonian fold are no less complicit because 
> they lack a title or a salary, and I am not complicit in anything but 
> living out my principles in refusing to support them. 
>
> That's me, my behavior, for which I and only I am responsible.  If 
> other people want to formalize a boycott against these businesses, 
> they can.  I'm as uninterested in heading that movement as I was this 
> time two weeks ago.  On the other hand, if people who suffer loss 
> because of their stubborn insistence on casting their lot with Christ 
> Church scream that Kristallnacht is just around the corner -- 
> evidenced by their "persecution" -- I'll be happy to head the movement 
> that condemns such a vile comparison.
>
> Paul, I've offered to talk with you one-on-one to clarify my point and 
> learn more about yours.  That offer is always open.  But please read 
> what I say correctly, and consider that misrepresenting my views 
> doesn't help either of us to understand each other.
>
> keely
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:46:40 -0800
> > From: joekc at adelphia.net
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] boycotting & religion
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > You are incorrectly describing Keely’s position and talking past her.
> >
> > First, where does Keely say anything about boycotting Christ Church
> > businesses? She is merely talking about her personal choice of where to
> > shop, which you note is her business.
> >
> > Second, I don't know of anyone who is critical of Christ Church 
> affiliated
> > people merely because of their religious beliefs. Keely made this 
> point below
> > but you ignore it.
> >
> > Third, how can you call the belief that slavery was OK a religious 
> belief? How
> > can you call the belief that Islam is a religion of hate a religious 
> belief? I could go on.
> >
> > Fourth, please tell us what you think about some of the recent 
> political actions
> > of members of Christ Church -- the sign suggesting that three 
> candidates are
> > bigots, and Dale Courtney's involvement with an anti-levy ad, where 
> he used
> > the name of a dead man instead of his own name. In light of these 
> and other
> > actions, how can you continue to think that Christ Church is merely 
> a church?
> >
> > Best, Joe
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:07:50 -0800
> > From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] boycotting & religion
> > To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> >
> > Keely,
> >
> > I don't like the idea of boycotting people based on their religious
> > choices. You think that Doug Wilson is arrogant and evasive. I can see
> > that. They believe that he is helping them to interpret the Bible and
> > their religion in a way that they believe is true. Boycotting people
> > who believe this and tithe to the church *is* boycotting for religious
> > reasons. The fact that you find this particular religion more odious
> > than most is beside the point. I could care less about the 10% that
> > they give to the church. Why deny them the 90% you otherwise would have
> > given to them?
> >
> > You've made a choice to not give money to people who give a small 
> amount
> > of it to Doug Wilson, and that's fine. Why urge others to do so en
> > masse? Let people make their own choices. My choice, for example, is
> > not to care what religion the people I do business with follow, nor 
> what
> > the character of the people are that they give some of their money to.
> >
> > I don't like the divide that is growing ever larger between the people
> > of this church and others in the community. I don't think it's healthy
> > for Moscow. I disagree with both the boycotting of Christ Church-owned
> > businesses and the practice that I've heard mentioned of Christ Church
> > members being urged to patronize only those same businesses.
> >
> > I disagree with their theology as much as or possibly even more than 
> you
> > do. When it comes down to it, they are just a bunch of everyday Joes
> > trying to make a living. I propose going out of our way to welcome them
> > into the community, while holding an extremely firm line on forbidding
> > them to change any of our laws to favor the ideals of their church. I
> > propose this, actually, for people of all religions - not just Christ
> > Church members.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > keely emerinemix wrote:
> > >
> > > I've been reading some of the Daily News letters to the editor and
> > > comments from my letter regarding Francis Foucachon's objection to
> > > boycotts "based on religion." He is horrified by the Christ Church
> > > congregant-owned list, and it appears a lot of folks are angry about
> > > my publicly stating that I won't patronize businesses owned by Doug
> > > Wilson's followers. They call is "religious bigotry." It isn't.
> > >
> > > I would remind people that I am a Trinitarian, evangelical Christian
> > > with a high and conservative view of Scripture, so it certainly, in
> > > this case, isn't about Christ Church's religion. I care absolutely
> > > not at all about the religious beliefs, or lack thereof, of those who
> > > own businesses in our town. I care about their behavior, and it is
> > > properly called "behavior" to follow and support financially a man 
> who
> > > has, in the name of the religion he and I both share, elevated
> > > arrogance and evasion, not to mention prejudice, to an art form. My
> > > behavior in response to the behavior of following such a man? I'll
> > > act in a way that ensures that not a dime of my money goes to 
> support him.
> > >
> > > It really is that simple.
> > >
> > > keely
> >
> >
> >
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> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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