[Vision2020] School District Math

[Kai Eiselein, editor]

My own high school experience was as follows:
1: Students were identified early as being college bound or non-college 
bound.
2: Those who were identified as non-college bound took a lot of vocational 
(shop) classes.
3: Those who were identified as college bound were put on a strictly 
academic track.
Students on the "college track" were not allowed to take vocational classes.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; "Sue Hovey" 
<suehovey at moscow.com>; "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>; 
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math


> Good points Donovan
> Besides training people for good jobs vocational training is good for 
> everyone. Even a college Professor could benefit from knowing how to do 
> some basic carpentry or electrical work. I would agree with Sue though 
> that everyone  including those in skilled trades should have some 
> familiarity with literature and History. I think the lack of a basic 
> knowledge of history and government  by college students is appaling. is 
> appalling .
>
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:24:16 -0700
> To: Sue Hovey suehovey at moscow.com,  Saundra Lund sslund at roadrunner.com, 
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math
>
>> Sue,
>>
>>   I don't think that students should forgo any portion of the academic 
>> curriculum that they can accomplish. I also don't think that non-voc-tech 
>> bound students should forgo getting training in a vocational skill 
>> because they INTEND to go and complete college.
>>
>>   Vocational jobs give students skills beyond that of just the 
>> occupation. It teaches them how to be goal oriented, how to work, and how 
>> to make a living and make money so they can afford to go to college.
>>
>>   I have a problem with an education system that condemns those to 
>> failure that don't understand one particular subject in academics. If a 
>> student can make a living with a vocational skill, why fail them if they 
>> cannot read at the 10 th grade level? It is as silly as failing a 
>> straight A student because he cannot weld or cook.
>>
>>   There is heavy discrimination against those that have skills that 
>> require non-academic training to develop those skills to their fullest 
>> potential.
>>
>>   People at the age of 14 or even 18 certainly don't always know what 
>> they want to do for the remaining 60-90 years of their life. However, we 
>> have an obligation to those children to provide two things; the general 
>> knowledge of how to live, develop, and learn on their own, and second, a 
>> skill to earn a livable wage in the society we are placing them in.
>>
>>   I don't believe that most people are strictly academic or vocational. I 
>> don't see it as students A and students B. I see it at as all people are 
>> A and B students. Some will have a harder time with A stuff and others 
>> with the B stuff. But it is the job of the school district to ensure 
>> students are employable and can survive out in the world the day after 
>> graduation not just by being able to read To Kill a Mocking Bird in 
>> Latin, but with a real applicable skill to bring home a paycheck and be a 
>> productive member of society.
>>
>>   I say again, the school district discriminates against the majority of 
>> the students by not providing vocational training.
>>
>>   Best,
>>
>>   Donovan
>>
>>   PS. Some of you have suggested that you disagree with the method in 
>> which Dr. Wietz is using to motivate the MSD to induct vocational skills 
>> into their education programs, I would like to hear your other methods 
>> that you think he should try. What suggestions do you have that get them 
>> to change the curriculum?
>>
>>   Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
>>   But I don't disagree with you. Those classes should be offered for
>> everyone. My disagreement is with those who would stratify the high 
>> school
>> population into the college bound and the non college bound and lock step
>> them through any program. I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. And
>> as for keyboarding skills, it seems to me they need to be taught in
>> elementary school. It used to be argued that elementary student motor
>> skills weren't developed enough for keyboarding, but I think from looking 
>> at
>> the fine motor skills of young people, that's probably a crock...
>>
>> Sue
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Saundra Lund"
>> To: "'Sue Hovey'" ; ; "'Donovan
>> Arnold'"
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:28 AM
>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] School District Math
>>
>>
>> > Hi Sue & Other Visionaries:
>> >
>> > Well, I hesitate to toss my opinions into the mix. First, Donovan & I
>> > might
>> > both keel over from the shock of publicly almost agreeing with each 
>> > other
>> > ;-)
>> >
>> > Second, and perhaps most importantly, I'm not particularly 
>> > well-informed
>> > about some of these things, and I don't have the answers.
>> >
>> > OTOH, by tossing my opinions out there, I might get an education 
>> > through
>> > the
>> > feedback :-)
>> >
>> > I'm not happy with Dr. Weitz's & his GMA buddies' lawsuit. I think it 
>> > was
>> > a
>> > destructive & divisive thing for them to do, and I would like to think
>> > that
>> > there was some better way for Dr. Weitz to accomplish his purpose,
>> > whatever
>> > it was. However, I'm not privy to what other, if any, attempts he may 
>> > or
>> > may not have made prior to filing suit.
>> >
>> > That said, I am *incredibly* disappointed with the school district. 
>> > There
>> > is no excuse, IMHO, for having such an incredibly anemic pro-tech (or
>> > whatever the current word is for what used to be vo-tech) ed program
>> > :-(((
>> > It's absolutely unconscionable, IMHO.
>> >
>> > I've told these two anecdotes before, but for those who weren't here 
>> > back
>> > then . . .
>> >
>> > First, when my daughter was at MJHS, we were told that if we wanted her 
>> > to
>> > formally learn keyboarding (the modern equivalent to the typing I 
>> > learned
>> > back in the Dark Ages), she *had* to take it at the junior high because 
>> > it
>> > wasn't offered at the high school. To me, that is one of the biggest
>> > loads
>> > of you-know-what -- I don't care what the excuse is, telling kids they
>> > have
>> > to take keyboarding before tenth grade or not at all is a huge 
>> > disservice
>> > to
>> > our students in this day & age.
>> >
>> > Second, I was one of those disgusting highly motivated, high achieving
>> > students who participated in lots of extracurricular activities back in
>> > the
>> > Dark Ages and who couldn't wait to get through high school and move 
>> > onto
>> > college. I went to summer school (another important thing this district
>> > is
>> > lacking, IMHO) every summer so I could take more electives and graduate
>> > early. Which I did.
>> >
>> > HOWEVER, the vo-tech training I took is what enabled me to progress
>> > through
>> > higher education -- the skill I learned put me above minimum wage and
>> > opened
>> > lots of opportunities for me to be able to work while going to college.
>> > Because my father didn't support my planned course of education, he
>> > withheld
>> > my college funds. Since I'd not applied for financial aid or 
>> > scholarships
>> > because I thought it better to leave those for young adults who 
>> > wouldn't
>> > be
>> > able to go to school without them, I wouldn't have been able to 
>> > *afford*
>> > to
>> > go to college were it not for the skills I got from vo-tech.
>> >
>> > I think it's a HUGE mistake to think that the pro-tech education this
>> > district is sorely lacking would only be of benefit to non-college 
>> > bound
>> > students. Regardless of the actual stats of district college-bound
>> > students
>> > vs non-college-bound students, it's inexcusable, IMHO, that our 
>> > district
>> > doesn't offer a real pro-tech program to *all* it's high school 
>> > students.
>> > I
>> > don't know how we got to this point, but it's wrong, Wrong, WRONG.
>> >
>> > So, while I strongly disagree with Dr. Weitz's course of action, I also
>> > strongly support his efforts to get this district into the 21st century
>> > with
>> > pro-tech education for *all* our high school students . . . and I 
>> > strongly
>> > disagree with the district's refusal to make progress in this area.
>> >
>> > Oh, and as an aside to Donovan, while I'm not qualified to discuss the
>> > nutritional status of our school breakfasts & lunches, I will say I'm 
>> > not
>> > happy with them. Try being the parent of a vegetarian student, and no, 
>> > my
>> > daughter isn't the only vegetarian at the high school! In our family, 
>> > we
>> > (well, maybe not my husband) used to really Friday nights as Pizza 
>> > nights,
>> > but since that's reportedly just about the *only* vegetarian choice at
>> > lunch, the bloom is *definitely* off that rose for my daughter after
>> > eating
>> > it day in & day out for just about two years now.
>> >
>> >
>> > JMHO,
>> > Saundra Lund
>> > Moscow, ID
>> >
>> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to 
>> > do
>> > nothing.
>> > - Edmund Burke
>> >
>> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life
>> > plus
>> > 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
>> > outside
>> > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
>> > author.*****
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
>> > [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>> > On Behalf Of Sue Hovey
>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:19 AM
>> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com; Donovan Arnold
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math
>> >
>> > Donovan makes a comparison one hears only too often today regarding the
>> > levy and its purpose. That's the pull between vocational and other
>> > education. His figure of 80% non college bound and 20% college bound is
>> > skewed for a number of reasons, but it isn't my purpose to mess with 
>> > it.
>> > I
>> > would simply ask:
>> >
>> > What part of an academic education should those not college bound
>> > forego? A good grounding in math? So many vocational-technical careers
>> > are
>> > based in mathematic principals. Being a good writer--one who uses
>> > literary
>> > conventions (spelling, punctuation, grammar) correctly, in order to
>> > communicate effectively in an increasingly interactive world? An
>> > introduction to good literature and the mental stimulation it provides? 
>> > A
>> > sound knowledge of basic scientific principles, and the theories on 
>> > which
>> > they are based? A knowledge of the history, not only of our country, 
>> > but
>> > the history and cultural underpinnings of current nations and the
>> > governments which preceeded them? Foreign language? Art? Music? Are
>> > not
>> > all these offerings equally important and vital to the proper education 
>> > of
>> > all our students, regardless of the career paths they choose, sometimes
>> > after heading down one path only to find they really want to be 
>> > somewhere
>> > else?
>> >
>> > It concerns me when people begin to make significant distinctions among
>> > students and their intellectual needs, based on educational plans that
>> > could
>> > tie them to lifetime career paths they may later find did not prepare 
>> > them
>> > for the life they really want to lead. The best education for students 
>> > is
>> > one that gives them ample preparation to sieze the opportunities which
>> > appeal to them in their 20s and 30s and not be limited by the choices 
>> > they
>> > made, or even worse, those that were made for them, when they were 15 
>> > or
>> > 16.
>> >
>> >
>> > Sue Hovey
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: Donovan Arnold
>> > To: Glenn Schwaller ;
>> > vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:36 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math
>> >
>> > Dr. Weitz is not only correct about the lawsuit because it is
>> > stealing from the public, but he is also correct in bring attention to 
>> > the
>> > notion that the School District doesn't want to spend money and 
>> > resources
>> > on
>> > the 80% of students that will not be college graduates and will be 
>> > working
>> > a
>> > vocational job. Is it fair to spend 80% of the pie on 20% of the kids? 
>> > I
>> > think not. MSD is practicing discrimination.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Donovan
>> >
>> > PS. The poor nutritional value of school lunches are another example
>> > of poor decisions being made by the public school system to prepare
>> > children
>> > for a quality life.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.3/824 - Release Date: 
>> > 5/29/2007
>> > 1:01 PM
>> >
>> >
>>
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