[Vision2020] the difference (ws personal invitation to Mr. Schwaller)

keely emerinemix kjajmix1 at msn.com
Wed May 30 21:35:19 PDT 2007


Clearly Gary and I are at an impasse, and so I simply want to make clear now what I have made clear before:  Yes, I did minister for more than a decade to people in the area of Western Washington I came here from.  No, I have never said I was an ordained minister, or even a minister in the sense of being anything other than a layperson doing what God has equipped me to do; i.e., be "one who ministers."   I never took a title -- or a penny -- and never sought or was offered ordination.  Further, I'm not an expert on much of anything, although I think I understand New Testament theology and feminist history better than most.  Generally, the only people who think I'm a Biblical scholar or an expert are people who have never met . . . a Biblical scholar or an expert.Which is my point:  Doug Wilson could have, should have, recognized his own limits and should have, could have, "ministered" to the larger community by ensuring that information on the "who" and the "what" regarding Sitler was made available, at the very least to ALL adult members of his congregation immediately.  You don't have to be an expert to argue that one, Gary.  keelyFrom: jampot at adelphia.netTo: kjajmix1 at msn.com; vpschwaller at gmail.com; bherodotus at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] the difference (ws personal invitation to Mr. Schwaller)Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:21:51 -0700








Ms. Mix, you state:
 
"Please understand, 
though, that while that is my primary concern regarding Sitler, it isn't my only 
one."
 
With all due respect, no kidding. I'm fairly certain that 
that was the main point of my post. I'm afraid I'm going to have to reserve 
judgment on what I think takes the more prominent position in the list of 
"things Ms. Mix is concerned about."
You ask:
 
"can you think of any organization, especially a 
church, that has behaved as arrogantly as the leadership of the 
Kirk?   Too subjective?  All right.  Can you think of any 
organization, especially a church, that has been embroiled in the controversy -- 
zoning, taxation, accreditation, plagiarism"
 
I think that your spin here is 
interesting.  What came first, the chicken or the egg? Would there be 
any controversy if there wasn't a small but shrill little group to take the 
slightest perceived problem and attempt to turn it into a county wide scandal? 
By the numbers: Zoning, resolved in favor of CC/NSA in spite of a mayor and city 
council that was not inclined to see things there way. Taxation: The board found 
no evidence of wrong doing and again the matter was resolved in their favor. 
Accreditation: They are and other then the fact that Nick Giver isn't happy with 
the situation I'm not sure what the problem is in this regard. Plagiarism: When 
the error was discovered it was owned up to and corrected. What do you want, 
seppuku? Don't answer, I'm sure we all know the response 
already.
 
" Can you truly 
believe that a pastor with no formal theological training and no background in 
psychiatry or psychology, ordained by his own hand-picked group and published by 
his own hand-cranked press, is truly an expert not only on Latin, the Classics, 
poetry, architecture, Biblical history, world history, Confederate history, 
epistemology, hermeneutics, child development, Scripture, and business -- as 
well as in counseling serial child rapists?"
 
I have no idea if Mr. Wilson makes expert claims in any of 
these areas. I am fairly sure that as a pastor it is his job to council and 
minister to the saints as well as the sinners to the best of his ability. You 
have said that you were involved with ministering, who ordained you? You express 
opinion on "Biblical history, world history, 
Confederate history, epistemology, hermeneutics, child development, Scripture, 
and business" where are your experts credentials?
 
"Does he ever 
seek counsel from anyone not holding a mirror, a pipe, and a pair of 
slippers?"
 
Silly rhetoric, you can't possibly know and I certainly 
don't.
 
"Do you think that maybe -- just maybe -- Sitler is 
more than even the estimable Doug Wilson could handle?"
 
If I thought that Mr. Wilson had or claimed sole responsibility for Mr. 
Sitler there would be cause for concern. Fortunately the court, probation and 
parole and several professional councilors, his family and a sizable chunk of 
the community are involved in his case as well.
 
"Doug Wilson didn't 
hide a pedophile while he was offending.  But he hid from all of us that a 
wolf HAD been harming the sheep in his care, and he bleated louder than any of 
them when one of them escaped to tell the world."
 
It is my understanding that according to 
the authorities (police, prosecutors, etc.) the consensus was that Mr. Wilson 
along with the elders in his congregation handled the situation well. Why should 
your opinion override theirs? Do you possess some expertise that the folks in 
Mr. Thompson's office or at the MPD do not? With regard to "loud bleating" my 
recollection is that what they expressed concern over was 
that one of the more reckless Vision members posted the names, addresses, 
and phone numbers of the victims; and that V2020 turned this into a further 
victimization of the children in order to attack Wilson. I think he might 
have had good cause to speak up. At the time there was nothing being posted that 
was helpful to the community and certainly not the 
family.
 
g


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  keely emerinemix 
  
  To: g. crabtree ; Glenn 
  Schwaller ; Bob Herodotus ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:49 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] the difference 
  (ws personal invitation to Mr. Schwaller)
  I appreciate the tone of your reply, Gary, and your willingness 
  to believe that I am concerned about the welfare of Moscow's children.  
  Please understand, though, that while that is my primary concern regarding 
  Sitler, it isn't my only one.When a group exhibits behavior that I 
  believe Christ Church has and you believe they haven't, I tend to view their 
  actions in crisis and in triumph through the lens of how they've acted 
  before.  And I freely admit that I expect a higher degree of integrity 
  from a church than I do from, say, a gun club, a moms' parenting group, or a 
  group that attracts people based on their common interest in philately.  
  This is not because riflemen, moms, or philatelists are people of inherently 
  lower moral standards, but because a church exists to worship and glorify One 
  higher than themselves; their standard, then, is an ascending one, not a 
  static or, God forbid, a descending one.  What the Bible says on this is 
  perhaps of little interest to most people, but it is germane to the issue at 
  hand for the preacher, teacher, elder and all other believers:  to whom 
  much (responsibility, respect) is given, much is expected (Matthew 
  25:14-30).  Further, teachers (we sometimes call them elders or pastors 
  as well) will be judged more strictly in their conduct and the content of 
  their counsel than, say, Mary Sue and Billy Bob Pewwarmer (James 3:1).  
  This of course applies to any of the pastors of the men you've mentioned, 
  regardless of who they are or what they've done, and it certainly applies to 
  the pastors (elders, etc.) of those men.  But here's the 
  rub.  There are a lot of churches in town whose doctrines I disagree 
  with.  This is rightly of little importance to anyone.  But there is 
  not another church in town that has conducted itself as carelessly and 
  dismissively of its community in the way Christ Church has.  I see it 
  that way, which is why I write what I write.  You don't, so you write 
  what you write.  But let's be fair, Gary -- can you think of any 
  organization, especially a church, that has behaved as arrogantly as the 
  leadership of the Kirk?   Too subjective?  All right.  Can 
  you think of any organization, especially a church, that has been embroiled in 
  the controversy -- zoning, taxation, accreditation, plagiarism -- that Christ 
  Church has?  Could it be that the subjective behaviors -- the dumb 
  teachings, the ill-informed defense of things that cause and have caused harm 
  to real people, the insistence on control and hierarchy -- coupled with these 
  objective issues have caused people to doubt that Doug Wilson has the 
  wellbeing of anyone other than Doug Wilson at heart?  That he's maybe 
  just a bit disingenuous at times?  Can you truly believe that a pastor 
  with no formal theological training and no background in psychiatry or 
  psychology, ordained by his own hand-picked group and published by his own 
  hand-cranked press, is truly an expert not only on Latin, the Classics, 
  poetry, architecture, Biblical history, world history, Confederate history, 
  epistemology, hermeneutics, child development, Scripture, and business -- as 
  well as in counseling serial child rapists?  Does he ever seek 
  counsel from anyone not holding a mirror, a pipe, and a pair of 
  slippers?I can readily accept that any of the men you listed before, 
  Gary, might attend churches in the area.  If 77 percent of the men in the 
  Texas State Prison system consider themselves  devout Baptists, as some 
  studies suggest, then it's not hard to believe that a guy who attends Sunday 
  worship might still be a guy who hurts women and children on Saturdays.  
  But Steven Sitler was in many ways a product of Christ Church and certainly an 
  academic protege of his pastor, Doug Wilson.  I would spend a great deal 
  of time in humble reflection if a student of mine somehow got through my 
  Christian college, attended my church regularly, spent time with my family and 
  my congregants' families -- in fact, lived with one because of the policy I'd 
  set forth for my students -- and yet somehow didn't grasp that forcing a child 
  to kiss his penis was evil.  I might even begin to wonder if perhaps I 
  had emphasized male control and power just a wee tiny bit too much, and I'd 
  re-explore if it really ought to be taught as well.  Sitler didn't begin 
  hurting children when he came to Christ Church, but evidently not even a 
  come-to-Jesus night of crisis with his pastor didn't compel him to take down 
  the "trophy website."  Do you think that maybe -- just maybe -- Sitler is 
  more than even the estimable Doug Wilson could handle? Nope.  
  Doug Wilson can handle anything.  He handles everything.  The 
  carnage might not have been from his hands, but his hands sure as hell would 
  contain it.  And not to protect anything or anyone other than . . . Doug 
  Wilson.  All you young Kirk moms -- hope you found out.  All you 
  moms and dads at the park -- remember, the covenant doesn't extend to 
  you.  All you doctors who might have put two and two together when your 
  youngest patients were presented to you with oddities and behaviors you 
  couldn't quite figure out -- well, there's a lot of creeps out there.  
  Hope you find 'em all.No, Doug Wilson didn't hide a pedophile while he 
  was offending.  But he hid from all of us that a wolf HAD been harming 
  the sheep in his care, and he bleated louder than any of them when one of them 
  escaped to tell the world.keely
  
    
    From: jampot at adelphia.netTo: kjajmix1 at msn.com; vpschwaller at gmail.com; 
    bherodotus at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] the 
    difference (ws personal invitation to Mr. Schwaller)Date: Wed, 30 May 
    2007 07:37:08 -0700
    Ms. Mix,
     
    It is my understanding that the instant that Mr. 
    Sitler's pastor became aware of the crimes that he had committed he made 
    immediate arrangements for the authorities to be notified, Sitler 
    removed as a threat to children, and the people that he thought 
    affected informed. Could he have done more? I suppose that a full 
    page ad could have been taken out or he could have gone door to door to be 
    sure that every mother in Moscow was completely aware of the sordid 
    situation. I'm guessing that had he done either of these things there would 
    have been complaints that he didn't appear on national TV to spread the 
    word.
     
    Of the men that I listed in the post you are referring 
    to why did I not hear the same out cry? Why was Mr. Burkgart's Pastor not 
    vilified for not alerting Latah Co. to the dangers of his congregant? Why no 
    hue and cry when Mr. Buckinghams priest didn't see to it that a note reached 
    every local in box? Mr. Brazington's guidance councilor excoriated for not 
    sending out a community wide memo? Perhaps every clergy person, counselor, 
    and health professional should be taken to task for "not 
    immediately and publicly sounding the alarm" on their charges crimes 
    rather than simply referring them to the proper authorities to be dealt with 
    as the law requires.
     
    When it comes to Sitler's release and the terms of his 
    parole it seems to me that we very much have an apples to apples comparison 
    with the men I have previously listed. To somehow blame his pastor for this 
    condition is definitely barking up the wrong tree. It would seem that your 
    complaints would be better directed to the judge, the prosecutor, the 
    probation and parole department, heck maybe even his parents. To imply 
    that this one offender is somehow more of a threat then the other men I have 
    mentioned because of his affiliation with a "particular community" is a 
    contention that I do not think that you can effectively 
support.
     
    I appreciate that you feel a concern for the youth of 
    our community. The point I am attempting to make is that I do not believe 
    that it is your sole concern. Were Sitler to have renounced his former 
    church and perhaps even disingenuously made the assertion that it 
    had somehow contributed to his deviance (as "certain elements" on 
    this list have) discussions of him and this topic would have taken on a 
    very different tone. I don't think this position is "stubborn and 
    truculent" I believe it's obvious to any fair minded observer. To deny 
    it would seem foolish.
     
    g
    
      ----- 
      Original Message ----- 
      From: 
      keely 
      emerinemix 
      To: 
      g. 
      crabtree ; Glenn Schwaller ; Bob 
      Herodotus ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
      Sent: 
      Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:00 PM
      Subject: 
      [Vision2020] the difference (ws personal invitation to Mr. 
Schwaller)
      Tom Hansen has ably explained why a recently-convicted, 
      just-released pedophile, one who faced only one count but admitted to 
      many, many others, is of greater concern than the majority of other sex 
      offenders.  I will now try to explain why there is so much 
      indignation expressed by "certain elements" on this list.  I'll try 
      to do so without self-righteously pointing out that while Schwaller 
      appears to be blithe and disingenuous, Crabtree appears to be merely 
      stubborn and truculent.No critique of anything having to do with 
      anyone at Christ Church, it seems, can be judged on its own merit or lack 
      thereof in Gary's world -- while professing to be a fair-minded guy, he 
      has apparently decided that origin of critique and substance of critique 
      are the same thing.  And since Christ Church staff and defenders 
      rarely stick around Vision 2020 when the going gets tough, it becomes easy 
      to blast any Vision 2020 questions regarding Kirk practice, doctrine, or 
      engagement with the community as the cynical whisperings of a "certain 
      element" dedicated to trashing a quirky but entirely innocent group of 
      God-worshippers.  Kirkers hide behind pseudonyms or leave the forum 
      in a huff, sniffling and snorting while Gary bravely points out that those 
      who are concerned about Sitler's conviction, sentence, release and 
      supervision haven't properly memorized the adjudication of every sex 
      offender now living in Latah County.  The truth is that while 
      Christ Church did not hide a pedophile among them during the time Sitler 
      offended, they did hide from the community that a serial pedophile had 
      been among them -- an important distinction and one that Crabtree, much 
      less the merry men of the Kirk, refuse to acknowledge.  Sitler's 
      parents' church immediately warned the community -- with name and picture 
      published throughout the community -- that Sitler was a pedophile and that 
      Sitler had been active in the Colville area.  Wilson and company 
      waited for several months to tell predominately male heads of households 
      that "a sex offender" -- there's some question whether or not Sitler or 
      the nature of his deeds was named -- had been among them and would likely 
      be returning.  The only women worthy of official notice were those 
      unmarried HOHs who bothered to attend meetings; the mothers of young 
      children had to find out from their "covenant heads," even though -- God, 
      I'm tired of saying this -- mothers of young children are generally in a 
      better position than anyone to correlate certain symptoms with possible 
      acts of depravity.  And as for the non-Kirk community -- well, a 
      brave blogger in the know broke the news.  He was smacked down and 
      hung out to dry; Wilson and the elders blathered on and on about "the 
      victims;" and I am not aware of even one time when Wilson has acknowledged 
      that MAYBE his neighbors, and the mothers who call him "pastor," might be 
      deserving of a heads-up.  Not once.Sin is sin, crime is 
      crime, and sex crimes of all nature are inherently stomach-churning.  
      But most thinking people can make a moral determination that there is a 
      quantitative if not qualitative difference between a guy in his 20s who 
      has sex with his underage girlfriend.  That guy, while deserving of 
      all the law has to hand out and a swift kick in the ass as well, isn't 
      generally a threat to others.  The adult, Christian college-educated 
      man who repeatedly uses toddlers for sex and does so in the most brazen, 
      arrogant, and reckless fashion is different.  Sitler and only Sitler 
      is accountable for his actions; Wilson and the elders, and only Wilson and 
      the elders, are accountable for the disdain with which they treated the 
      community in not immediately and publicly sounding the alarm.  We all 
      know that there is not a class of pedophilia that limits its victims to 
      "those also in the offenders church," and we know serial pedophiles are 
      virtually certain to reoffend.  It's tragic if they do so within or 
      outside of their particular community.I know that Gary Crabtree is 
      a smart guy who sees this.  I just wonder when Gary will be the 
      honest guy that I believe him to be and finally acknowledge that all is 
      not well at the Kirk and certainly wasn't during the time Sitler 
      confessed.  Or is it more fun to simply blast away at the straw men 
      erected to strengthen his contention that the Kirk is being 
      persecuted?  Because if so, that's not curmudgeonly and libertarian, 
      Gary -- it's foolish.keely
      
        
        From: jampot at adelphia.netTo: kjajmix1 at msn.com; 
        vpschwaller at gmail.com; bherodotus at yahoo.com; 
        vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] A personal invitation 
        to Mr. SchwallerDate: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:31:34 -0700
        
        It's rather difficult to take all the indignation 
        and self righteousness expressed by a certain element on this list as 
        seriously as one might otherwise. Why is Sitler singled out for all 
        the condemnation (not that he doesn't deserve every ounce of it) 
        when there has there been nary a peep when it comes to others 
        who have committed the very same (or worse) crime in this county and 
        also still reside here. Where is your "legitimate fears" when it comes 
        to Michael Ashcraft, Christopher Busting, and Mike Brazington? Why are 
        you not so vocally "concerned" about Robert Buckingham, Frank Burkgart, 
        and Harvey Hamilton? What about the likelihood of reoffense for Michael 
        Hardway, Dennis Hendrix, Wayne Jacobs, Knute Klingler, and Kevin 
        Osterberg? Could it be that they get no Vision 2020 scrutiny 
        and castigation because to do so would not further an 
        agenda? I'm afraid that the pious blather that comes 
        from History Daddy and his little band of likeminded 
        friends would be far easier to stomach were it not so blatantly 
        just another cynical means to an end.
         
        g
        
          ----- 
          Original Message ----- 
          From: 
          keely 
          emerinemix 
          To: 
          Glenn Schwaller ; Bob 
          Herodotus ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
          Sent: 
          Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:52 AM
          Subject: 
          Re: [Vision2020] A personal invitation to Mr. Schwaller
          Somewhere between five and 98 percent of all 
          Visionaires who read the post below detect an undercurrent of  
          snarling, manly arrogance.  I'm guessing that the two percent 
          were raising their Sabbath glasses to him.Either way, his 
          attempts to mask his disdain for his questioner by quoting the gamut 
          of statistics that might address the Sitler situation fell flat.  
          I'm afraid indifference to the genuine concern expressed by other 
          Visionaires and disdain for them for expressing it leaked out like a 
          robust Syrah in cloudy, cracked stemware.I'll try it the 
          simple, albeit shrill and insistent, manner Schwaller by now knows me 
          for:Can you possibly grasp the anger this community has toward 
          Sitler and those who dealt with him, and can you understand the 
          legitimate fears of those concerned that he's out of jail?  
          keely
          
            
            Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 14:18:47 -0700From: 
            vpschwaller at gmail.comTo: bherodotus at yahoo.com; 
            vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] A personal 
            invitation to Mr. SchwallerVisionaries and Mr 
            Herodotus,Thank you for the invitation to "return" but I 
            never really left.  I was simply a bit busy over the past few 
            days taking advantage of the weather break to plant the begonias, 
            nasturtiums, and geraniums.I'll attempt to answer your 
            questions, but I do so assuming you are being genuine and not 
            disingenuous in your query.  I mention this only because 
            another visionary has questioned "the truth about (your) opinions", 
            that this individual "Doesn't believe I'll do that" (accept the 
            truth of my opinions), "thank you very much.", then proceeds to 
            demand the answer to 3 additional questions.So, on to your 
            questions.  These are important, timely questions that deserve 
            answers.  However, I don't believe I can give you full nor 
            adequate answers to any of them.  I don't know that definitive 
            answers exist, however one can find just about any answer one wants 
            to fit one's position.  That being said:"1. Can you 
            please tell us the recidivism rate for serial pedophiles?"I 
            don't believe a thorough statistical study has been done for over 10 
            years.  So keeping that in mind, according to the U.S. 
            Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics, within 3 years 
            of release from incarceration, a little more than 5 percent of sex 
            offenders were rearrested for another sex crime.  If one looks 
            at ALL crimes committed, about 40 percent of sex offenders were 
            rearrested for other offenses.Within this three year period, 
            3.5 percent of convicted sex offenders were convicted again for a 
            sex crime, 24 percent convicted for new crimes, and about 40 percent 
            are imprisoned again because of a parole or probation 
            violation.However, if you're Joan Opyr, in an article she 
            published not quite a year ago, she quotes a 75% recidivism 
            rate.The USDJ study also looked at the relationship between 
            offenders and victims and reported that overall, 46 percent of the 
            victims were a family member.  A 2005 study by the National 
            Crime Victimization Survey reports that 73 percent of sexual 
            assaults were known by the victim: 38 percent were a friend or 
            acquaintance, 28 percent were involved in an "intimate" 
            relationship, and 7 percent were another relative.    
            An NPR story in 2005 offered a 98 percent recidivism rate 
            over a 25 year period, with a 60 percent likelihood of offending 
            again within 5 years under the best treatment available., there is a 
            60% occurrence of re-offence within five years. The story also 
            mentions that the offender in most sexual abuse cases is a family 
            member or friend of the family  (97 percent for victims under 
            the age of 6, and 95 percent of those between the ages 6 and 
            12).So, somewhere between 5 and 95 percent?"2. Can 
            you please share with us the average number of children that repeat 
            offenders violate before their discovery?"Again, I have no 
            concrete statistics.  There is apparently some information on 
            Mr Sitler's repeated violations before he was discovered (I'm sure 
            Mr Hansen can give you that number off the top of his head).  
            The numbers seem to run from one to dozens over decades for catholic 
            priests.  And in Portugal, a driver and gardener was accused of 
            molesting children at the school where he was worked.  After 
            questioning and examining more than 600 children, over 125 were 
            reported to have been victimized by this individual.So, 
            somewhere between 1 and more than 125? "3,  Can you 
            please describe for us a worst-case scenario for the children of 
            Moscow (number of victims, age of victims, types of abuse, etc.), if 
            Mr. Sitler resumes his pattern of serial predation?"Quite 
            frankly, I sense an undercurrent of sarcasm in this last question, 
            but hey . . .Maybe you can ask me how many polar bears, 
            perched on their ever-diminishing slab of ice, are going to starve 
            tonight?Well, obviously I can't give you the answers you 
            would like to hear.  I doubt even Mr Sitler himself would know, 
            given the worst possible case, what would be the answers to those 
            questions.  However, if you refer back to the replies to 
            Question 1, you may find some answers of sorts in there.I'd 
            like to think I have the community's, but perhaps not that of 
            starving polar bear's, interests at 
            heart.Schwaller"You can always see it commin', but 
            you can never stop it."  --Michael 
            Timmins
            On 5/28/07, Bob Herodotus <bherodotus at yahoo.com > 
            wrote: 
            Visionaries and Mr. Schwaller,I 
              personally invite Mr. Schwaller to return to this forum because I 
              for one found his posts both provocative and enlightening. Hard 
              facts about serial pedophiles are difficult to ascertain and I 
              commend him for sharing his knowledge of this unseemly subject 
              with us so that we as a community can be better prepared to 
              address a predator in our midst.With this in mind, I have 
              a couple of questions for Mr. Schwaller.1. Can you please 
              tell us the recidivism rate for serial pedophiles?2. Can 
              you please share with us the average number of children that 
              repeat offenders violate before their discovery?3. 
              Finally, given your familiarity with Steven Sitler's case file, 
              can you please describe for us a worst-case scenario for the 
              children of Moscow (number of victims, age of victims, types of 
              abuse, etc.), if Mr. Sitler resumes his pattern of serial 
              predation?I believe that these are reasonable questions 
              for a community to ask and I believe that you have our community's 
              best interests at heart.Thank 
              you,Herodotus____________________________________________________________________________________Looking 
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