[Vision2020] Abortion Reform or holocaust

Tue May 22 13:55:57 PDT 2007

Dr Gier,

I have read your posting, and I have read your complete article.

Unfortunately, as in most things of human nature, neither theological, nor
scientific, nor logical arguments seem to change ones beliefs or
opinions.  Witness the Vision2020 website.

Your article appears to cover a wide range of viewpoints on abortion; a
thorough treatise indeed.  However, (and I may be wrong) I doubt many will
change their core beliefs because of it.  As a group (Catholics, the
Government etc.) may adopt different stances on an issue, but I believe this
to be more a reflection of how public opinion changes things (you want my
vote, you best get on board) and not how individuals of the group feel or
believe.

We mourn the loss of 4 of own in last weekend's tragedy.  I note an article
on page 3 of Monday's MPDN:  Report: N. Idaho abortion rate higher than rest
of state.

In 2005 Idaho reported over 22,500 live births across the state.  The range
in abortions per 1000 ranged from 79 to 206 for that same year.  If we take
a median value of about 142 abortions per 1000 births this results in over
3000 abortions in 2005, over 8 per day.  Twice our loss over the weekend in
Moscow per day.

I, personally, feel abortion to be wrong.  At any time post-conception.  I
will, however, make a concession to therapeutic abortions when the life of
the mother is at risk.  I liken this to a self-defense killing.  Would I
kill someone because they are an "inconvenience" to me?  Absolutely not.
Would I kill someone because they threaten my life?  In a heartbeat.

However, I refuse to believe over 3000 abortions performed in Idaho in 2005
were therapeutic.

Rape and/or incest?  I cannot justify abortion in those instances.  The
National Crime Victimization Study in 2005 reported a little over 64,000
rapes in the United States.  The medical community suggests around a 5%
pregnancy rate for 1-time intercourse, resulting in a little more than 3200
pregnancies as a result of rape and/or incest.  Out of over 4 million live
births in the US in that same year, this looks to me like about 0.08% can be
attributed to rape and/or incest.  Enough to justify abortion as a "right"?
For me, no.

So, what to do with all these unwanted children that would litter our little
universe?  I'll hold that for another post.  In the meantime, I'm sure you
Visionaries will give your ideas.

Schwaller

On 5/22/07, nickgier at adelphia.net <nickgier at adelphia.net> wrote:
> Good Morning:
>
> I just listened to yesterday's press conference on the tragedy and I was
very impressed with the composure and professionalism of our city
leaders.  I especially admired the comment of UI President White and Mayor
Chaney.  Tom Stroschein's statement was moving and eloquent.  The law
enforcement officials were very professional and answered tough questions
with thoroughly informed answers.
>
> Out of respect for many on this list, I will hold my draft column on gun
control and violence in America for a later date.  I do feel an obligation
to meet my KRFP radio commentary deadline for tomorrow and will go ahead
with my scheduled topic.
>
> I have added this statement to my recorded talk: "Before I begin I would
like to extend my condolences to the families of Officier Bill Newbill, Paul
Bauer, Crystal Hamilton, and Jason Hamilton.  It is good news to hear that
Officier Brannon Jordan and Peter Hussman will recover from their
injuries."  Please note that I have not left out Jason Hamilton's
family.  They should not be ignored just because of their son's deeds.
>
> A note to ToeKnee: Please hold all comments about me being a Nazi.
>
> CATHOLICS MAY HAVE GOOD REASONS
> TO SUPPORT ABORTION REFORM
>
> First published in the Los Cabos Daily News, May 16, 2007
>
> Read my complete article on abortion at
www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm.
>
> The law does not provide that the act of abortion pertains to homicide,
> for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks
sensation....
> --St. Augustine
>
> In April of 2007 the Mexico City government voted 46-19 to decriminalize
abortion, the first city in Latin America (except Cuba) where elective
abortions are now legal.  These Countries do allow therapeutic abortions in
the case of rape and a threat to the life of the mother.
>
> A papal envoy sent to the Mexican capital before the vote declared that
any Catholic legislator who supported the bill would be excommunicated, but
a large majority ignored the threat.  Other scare tactics, such as comparing
abortion to suicide bombing, apparently did not work.
>
> Most people do not realize that at one time the Vatican had a less strict
view on abortion.  The killing of a first trimester fetus was not murder
until a papal decree of 1869, and canon law on this point was not changed
until 1917.  It is worth noting that over 90 percent of all American
abortions are performed in the first trimester.
>
> Drawing on Greek ideas of fetal development that are partially confirmed
by current science, St. Thomas Aquinas believed that the fetus was not a
person until late in pregnancy. The Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain
declared that "to admit that the human fetus" is a person "from the moment
of conception . . . sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity."
>
> The 1917 change in canon law may have been the result of applying genetics
to the abortion issue.  Some have argued that the conceptus is a person
because it has a unique genetic identity. Most animal fetuses have unique
genetic identities, so does this mean that we have to protect their lives as
well?
>
> This argument confuses genetic and personal identity.  Twins have the same
genetic identity, but they become two different moral and legal persons.
With the technology of cloning every cell in the body could be made into
thousands of persons all with the same genetic identity.
>
> It is supremely ironic that the genetic argument completely undermines the
idea of the person as a spiritual being.  Genetics deals only with the
material body, not our spiritual natures, which are, according to
Judeo-Christianity, special creations in "the image of God."
>
> St.Thomas believed that the divine image is implanted late in pregnancy,
not a conception.  He concluded that the person "is created by God at the
completion of man's coming into being."  As surprising as it sounds, the
greatest Catholic theologian, declared infallible by Pius IX, would have
agreed with Roe v. Wade.
>
> Not only can Catholics make sound philosophical arguments for abortion
reform, they can also make strong practical arguments.  Just because
abortion is illegal does not mean that it does not happen. The gruesome ways
that it does occur cries out for reform.
>
> The Alan Guttmacher Institute (www.guttmacher.org) has estimated that 4
million illegal abortions are performed in Latin America each year, and
approximately 800,000 women are hospitalized because of complications
resulting from unsafe techniques.  It is estimated that 1,500 Mexican women
die each year because of clandestine abortions.
>
> The Guttmacher report has made a list of the techniques Latin American
women use because they are not offered safe, legal abortions.  These
desperate women take caustic substances orally and vaginally, or they insert
rubber tubes (sometimes with toxic fluids), wires, knitting needles, or just
sticks.
>
> Compared to an abortion rate of 11 per 1,000 women in Western Europe and
26 per 1,000 in the U.S., there are an estimated 37 abortions for every
thousand Latin American women.  More abortions are performed in Brazil alone
than in the U.S, even though the U.S. has 122 million more people.
>
> The Guttmacher report demonstrated that Latin American abortion rates have
dropped since 1980 primarily because of increased use of contraceptives. In
direct opposition to church doctrine, Mexico and Columbia have national
family planning programs; and, significantly, they also have the lowest
abortion rates in Latin America.
>
> When Pius IX moved personhood back to conception in 1869 that meant that
stricter controls had to be placed on all attempts to prevent fertilization.
The double ban on abortion and contraception has been disastrous for women's
health in Catholic countries.
>
> Using sound philosophical and practical arguments, Catholics can promote
sex education, systematic family planning programs, and safe, legal
abortion.  The logic is simple: fewer unwanted pregnancies mean fewer
abortions and healthier mothers.
>
>
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