[Vision2020] Schwaller the Reductio

[J Ford]

THANK YOU!!!!  Exactly what the point I was trying to make.  Excellent!



J  :]





>From: Bob Herodotus <bherodotus at yahoo.com>
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Schwaller the Reductio
>Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 06:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Schwaller whiffs again, this time minimizing the impact of Wilson's 
>influence on his devotees when he wrote,
>
>"For your example to hold up, Mr Sitler .  .  .  would need to have seen 
>Doug Wilson .  .  .  in the act of molesting children, then justify his 
>actions by saying "Well Doug did it, it must be OK for me to do it."  Since 
>this was not the case, Doug Wilson cannot be held accountable for Mr 
>Sitler's actions, in the sight of man, of law, or of God."
>
>Of course, this is absurd because it ignores the overwhelming testimony of 
>Scripture, which clearly holds teachers to a higher standard, "for in many 
>things [they] offend all" (James 3:1, ff).  And the "many" includes the all 
>the little things that encompass a man's doctrine and that illustrate his 
>sermons on a daily basis.  Consider these examples of the influence of 
>Wilson's doctrine on Steven Sitler:
>
>Pedophiles rely on manipulative deceit to capture and silence their 
>victims, and Steven Sitler sat under the master of manipulation — Douglas 
>Wilson — when he preyed in Moscow.  Rest assured that by reading Wilson's 
>blog and observing his interaction with the public, Sitler learned cunning 
>beyond measure.  Yes, indeed, he watched his pastor twist other's words 
>into meaning something that no one intended, in order to manipulate them 
>into giving him what he wanted (do kirkers really believe the stories that 
>Wilson peddles about Duck? He fabricated every one of them while he applied 
>enormous economic and emotional pressure on the Schulers, hoping they'd 
>cave).  Sitler learned from Wilson how to create opportunities by 
>misrepresentation and then pounce on weakness the moment he saw it.  And 
>not ironically, Sitler arrived in Moscow in fall 2003, just in time to 
>witness Wilson and Jones deceitfully manipulate the thesis of "Southern 
>Slavery As It Was" into a book about
>  non-violent emancipation.  He saw Wilson dismiss the capital crime of 
>manstealing and manipulate its proceeds — slavery — into a "life of 
>plenty."  Wilson taught him how to manipulate words so that oppressive 
>slaveholders became "noble Christians" and stolen labor became a lifestyle 
>of "mutual affection."  Yes, know for sure that Wilson taught Sitler the 
>deceitful art of manipulation.
>
>Pedophiles are typically narcissists and Sitler sat under the poster child 
>of narcissism — Douglas Wilson — during his stay in Moscow.  Indeed, his 
>parents educated him on the Wilson classical model, praising all things 
>Wilson, with the hope they could send him to New Saint Andrews College 
>where he could fawn over every word that fell from the master's lips.  And 
>as saw the master encourage the worshiping multitudes to adore him, know 
>for sure that he learned self-love exceeds self-denial as the preeminent 
>Christian virtue.
>
>Pedophiles act in contempt of all law — God's and man's — in order to 
>obtain their desires, and Sitler's 18 months in Moscow forever embedded the 
>principle in his mind that if the law stands in your way, break it.  Steven 
>Sitler was an eyewitness to Douglas Wilson's public defiance of state 
>property tax law as well as the City Zoning Code, and he learned firsthand 
>that Christian dominion Wilson-style provides for self-willed 
>antinomianism, if necessary.  Wilson taught Sitler that the law does not 
>represent a gift from God, rather it is a tool of the godless intoleristas 
>to persecute the godly kirkers whose reign shall be for ever and ever.  No 
>doubt Wilson's wholesale contempt for authority encouraged Sitler to 
>disdain any authority who would check his impulses.  (If you disagree with 
>this assertion, please show me one example in the last five years where 
>Wilson exemplified humble Christian submission to the civil magistrate 
>pursuant to Romans 13.)
>
>Finally, pedophiles see children not as humans but as objects, and the most 
>important lesson that Steven Sitler learned in Moscow was in the field of 
>anthropology.  Douglas Wilson taught Steven Sitler to take joy and 
>satisfaction in dehumanizing and humiliating human beings made in the image 
>of God.  And just as Wilson strips people of their dignity, taking sadistic 
>pleasure in flaying them alive with his serrated edge, so Sitler stripped 
>children of their dignity, scarring them for life with his naked flesh.  No 
>surprise that victims of pedophiles usually suffer acute shame — 
>inexplicable feelings of humiliation and embarrassment — as a result of 
>their molestation.  And Sitler learned the chief article of his faith in 
>Moscow, Idaho, where Douglas Wilson, pastor of Christ Church, taught him 
>the ABCs of dehumanization.  (This is also perhaps the best explanation 
>that accounts for kirkers' lack of horror at Sitler's crimes; Wilson has 
>successfully desensitized them from
>  feeling compassion for their fellowmen.  They are "without natural 
>affection.")
>
>No, Christian doctrine is not limited to a set of credos; rather, it is a 
>system of beliefs lived out each day.  And while Douglas Wilson never 
>approved of pedophilia or taught Steven Sitler how to rape a child, he 
>certainly helped the serial pedophile hone the deviant personality traits 
>necessary to commit the unspeakable, and Wilson did it in the name of the 
>Lord Jesus Christ.  Welcome to Christ Church, Moscow.
>
>Herodotus
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Glenn Schwaller <vpschwaller at gmail.com>
>To: J Ford <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>; vision2020 at moscow.com
>Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:46:42 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller
>
>Ms Ford
>
>I think what Paul meant by these verses is that if "someone with a
>weak conscience" commits a sin because he has seen you (with a strong
>conscience) commit that sin, then you will be held accountable for his
>sin.  For your example to hold up, Mr Sitler (weak conscience) would
>need to have seen Doug Wilson (strong conscience) in the act of
>molesting children, then justify his actions by saying "Well Doug did
>it, it must be OK for me to do it."  Since this was not the case, Doug
>Wilson cannot be held accountable for Mr Sitler's actions, in the
>sight of man, of law, or of God.  Could Doug Wilson have handled
>things in a better way?  I think so.  Could law enforcement have
>handled things in a better way? I think so.  Could everyone involved
>in this have handled it in a better way?  I think so.  But were any of
>these individuals or groups responsible for Mr Sitler's actions?  I
>think not.
>
>As far as "proof" of Doug Wilson pronouncing Mr Sitler as "cured", I
>have not seen the document to which you refer, but I will look for it.
>I suspect, as in Paul's letter to the Corinthians which you cite,
>there is some fairly important "stuff" before and after the parts you
>selected which may put things in a different context.
>
>Schwaller
>
>"Once upon a time there were cannibals; there are no cannibals any more"
>      Mark Knopfler (and maybe Jonathan Swift as well . . .)
>
>
>
>On 5/15/07, J Ford <privatejf32 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Wilson is accountable to God for what he teaches and who he harms, and
> > certainly for any deficit in how he handled, and continues to handle,
> > Sitler's situation.  But he is not accountable for Sitler's actions."
> >
> > Then how do you account for:
> >
> > 1 Corinthians 8:9-12 (New International Version)
> > New International Version (NIV)
> >
> > 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become 
>a
> > stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone with a weak conscience 
>sees
> > you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be
> > emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak
> > brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When 
>you
> > sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, 
>you
> > sin against Christ.
> >
> > Just saying.............
> >
> >
> >
> > J  :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> > >To: Bob Herodotus <bherodotus at yahoo.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller
> > >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:46:23 -0700
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Mr. Herodotus raises some interesting points in framing the debate 
>about
> > >the release of Steven Sitler and the community's response to it, 
>including
> > >Tom Hansen's and Wayne Fox's use of hyperbole to express their horror 
>at
> > >the idea that an untrained pastor can confidently conclude that Sitler 
>is
> > >"repentant," much less "cured."I caught some flack offlist  for writing 
>a
> > >few days ago that I was not qualified  to judge the sincerity of 
>Sitler's
> > >remorse and repentance.  I believe that still, just as I believe that 
>no
> > >one else but Steven Sitler is qualified to or capable of judging his
> > >conscience -- not Doug Wilson, not Sitler's parents, not the judge, the
> > >attorney, his best friend, or anyone other than the God he is 
>accountable
> > >to.  And while this is of interest to those of us who think in terms of
> > >spirituality and theology, it likely isn't of interest to anyone else,
> > >because repentance and remorse (and regeneration and redemption), while
> > >eternal in nature and scope, are entirely different from law.  It is 
>the
> > >law and the circumstances surrounding Sitler's crimes, incarceration, 
>and
> > >release that ought rightly to concern every one of us.Just as I'm not 
>able
> > >to say whether or not Sitler is genuinely remorseful for his 
>unspeakable
> > >crimes against children -- not against "heads of households," but 
>against
> > >children -- I am also unable to judge if he is a psychopath or a 
>sociopath
> > >or if he's sick in ways that perhaps defy definition.  I'd rather not
> > >speculate about the link to Wilson's teachings and the Kirk culture 
>Sitler
> > >was surrounded by and, in doing so, conclude that actual guilt for his
> > >crimes is anyone's other than Sitler's.  That's wrong; besides, it 
>misses
> > >the point by focusing on Doug Wilson and not on the error and ugliness 
>of
> > >the theology itself.  This is what I was responding to in J Ford's post 
>--
> > >that there was a link, and thus a defined moral culpability, on the 
>part of
> > >Wilson and those from Christ Church who counseled Sitler.  I felt the 
>post
> > >was near-slanderous and otherwise unhelpful to the larger debate, and I
> > >preferred then, as I do now, to focus on the legal aspects of Sitler's
> > >culpability and correction while leaving the spiritual and moral aspect 
>of
> > >his professed remorse in front of an entirely different judge.  The 
>parlor
> > >game of "is he more sick than evil, or more evil than sick?", has not 
>even
> > >the value of a spirited game of gin rummy with the added toxin of 
>gossip
> > >and rumormongering.  I won't play it.I would rather focus on the truly
> > >awful handling of Scripture and the bullying behavior toward his 
>community
> > >demonstrated by Doug Wilson.  I believe I've made it pretty clear that 
>I
> > >find most of Wilson's peculiar teachings and most of his public 
>comportment
> > >highly objectionable.  I also believe that bad theology -- and that by 
>the
> > >standard of Scripture, not my own sensibilities -- inevitably leads to 
>bad
> > >practice, and a continued emphasis on patriarchy, male hierarchical
> > >headship, unbalanced submission and a church culture that appears to 
>value
> > >covenant over character may have made it easier for Sitler to do what 
>he
> > >would have eventually done anyway.  Still, if Wilson's teachings 
>removed
> > >some moral barricade that might have slowed him down, the nature of
> > >pedophilia requires us to acknowledge that Sitler would have finished 
>the
> > >race regardless.  Wilson is responsible for a lot of harm because of 
>his
> > >teachings; they've taken root in people who bear accountability for any
> > >tangible harm they've done to others because of their application.  
>Wilson
> > >is accountable to God for what he teaches and who he harms, and 
>certainly
> > >for any deficit in how he handled, and continues to handle, Sitler's
> > >situation.  But he is not accountable for Sitler's actions.  I wish 
>Steven
> > >Sitler weren't released, no matter how sincere he is.  I remain 
>unalterably
> > >opposed to the death penalty, I do pray for Sitler and for his victims, 
>and
> > >I continue in my skepticism that this was handled as well as it should 
>have
> > >been while steadfastly believing Doug Wilson to be naive at best in 
>gauging
> > >the depth of Sitler's remorse.   Why this hasn't caused people to bolt 
>from
> > >the Kirk is beyond me.  If I were considered, as a married woman, not
> > >worthy by my elders of receiving direct and timely information 
>regarding
> > >any possible threat to my children, both Jeff and I would raise the 
>roof
> > >and level the foundation.  I believe acquiescence to error leads to
> > >acquiescence to evil, and those who think they're being persecuted 
>because
> > >of their allegiance to Jesus might reexamine their loyalties and find 
>that
> > >blind acceptance of error and arrogance stems not from following 
>Christ,
> > >but from following those who amass titles and accolades in His 
>name.keely>
> > >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:39:20 -0700> From: bherodotus at yahoo.com> To:
> > >vision2020 at moscow.com> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr.
> > >Schwaller> > Dear Mr. Schwaller,> > You would have "staved off some
> > >ignorance" and "offered up . . . factual information" if you had simply
> > >replied, "We may never know," and even then you should not have 
>qualified
> > >your answer with the word "may" because we WILL NEVER KNOW what drives
> > >Steven Sitler.  This is because the man is a psychopath, i.e. he has no
> > >conscience and no compunction.  He lacks the moral capacity to feel 
>right
> > >and wrong — and he is aggressive.  One public record (which the court 
>has
> > >sealed) documented in explicit detail his rape of a two-year-old girl, 
>in a
> > >room immediately adjacent to a group of adults.  "Perhaps perhaps 
>perhaps,"
> > >you find this flip.  I do not; hence my inquiry about the website in
> > >relation to the so-called apology.> > At best, Steven Sitler did not
> > >comprehend that the photographs of victims on his website horrified 
>normal,
> > >decent human beings, which is another way of noting that he is twisted 
>at
> > >levels no one understands.  Consequently, "'cured' is not an option."  
>And
> > >as "cured" is not an option, then it follows that no one can ever trust 
>him
> > >under any circumstance, which probably accounts for his constant need 
>to
> > >have a chaperon, i.e. a court-appointed guardian who will insure that 
>he
> > >does not wander near children.  And if the man is so untrustworthy that
> > >even "a distressed result from a polygraph is going to bring P&P and 
>the
> > >court down on him like a ton of Logos Bricks," then it follows that no 
>one
> > >should believe a word he says, which includes his apologies.  Besides,
> > >somehow the words, "I'm sorry I molested your baby," just don't cut 
>it.> >
> > >So it is laughable that you attribute remorse, "even if it was not 100%
> > >heartfelt," to a psychopath, and if this was not so serious it would be
> > >downright hilarious that you manipulated this seeming remorse into 
>cause
> > >for demanding an apology from community members who expressed shock at 
>the
> > >probation of a serial pedophile.> > Since you represent yourself as new 
>to
> > >the listserv, let me tell you a story. Years ago, Pastor Douglas Wilson
> > >used to berate this list with the question, "By what standard?"  I say
> > >"used to" because after hectoring and haranguing the community with his
> > >fixed biblical standard, he proved himself a textbook hypocrite when he
> > >applied a relative standard to justify the unbiblical thesis of his 
>book
> > >"Southern Slavery As It Was."  It was really quite amusing, though the
> > >amusement didn't last long.  The poor fool ran from here faster than 
>you
> > >can say "Edna."> > I call these historical facts to your attention, Mr.
> > >Schwaller, to ask you two questions:  First, by what standard do you
> > >attribute "some modicum of sincerity" to an apology delivered by the
> > >psychopath Sitler?  and by what standard do you ask Messieurs Fox and
> > >Hansen to apologize?> > Bob Herodotus> > > > >        >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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