[Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...

Tony tonytime at clearwire.net
Sun Mar 18 15:00:30 PDT 2007


Thoughtful and cordial post, J.

Thanks.

By "confidence with woman," I mean to describe a man who knows what makes 
them tick.  Who understands that while they of course wish and deserve to be 
treated as equals with men, this does not mean denying their obvious and 
glorious femininity.  They in most cases like to be treated as human beings; 
no double entendre's and creepy stares, but opened doors, genuine interest 
and attention, thorough grooming and a non-threatening but still sexually 
charged interaction.

Men and woman are BOTH attracted to confidence.  And as for a woman, I see 
no reason why childrearing and housekeeping would preclude confidence.  Take 
care of a couple toddlers sometime!  It will require confidence, 
determination and guts.

Ands that's AFTER a valium.

Just kidding J.

Guess what I'm getting at is that we are both hard wired through many 
millennia to be attracted to one another.  Why allow all this politically 
correct, feminist bullshit to get in the way of a good time?

J, you woman have always been aloof and in control.  Always capable with the 
proper approach, of have us salivating and begging for a scrap. We men are 
all dogs anyway J, but when you get to know us you will enjoy teaching us 
tricks.

Woof!

-Tony
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...


>
> No offense meant, but "attractiveness" in a male OR female involves more
> than just the outside appearances.  The INSIDE appearances also need to be
> good looking.  What I mean by that is that the person's attitude, 
> demeanor,
> helpfulness to the family and community, etc. has to all be considered 
> when
> you look at a person and say they are attractive or not.  Anyone can put 
> on
> enough outside garb to make their bodies look good (to each their own on
> that one.) but if the insides (the mental and emotional sides) are messed
> up, no amount of make-up or fashionable (?) clothing or shoes as well as
> well-quaffed hair will make a person "attractive".  IMHO, of course.
>
> I am NOT sure what you mean by "confidence with women" - is that like Doug 
> F
> or Doug W or Tony S who think the only thing a women is good for is 
> popping
> out babies, being sub-servant and homebodies - of that, they are 
> confident?
>
> Or do you mean that they (the men) have confidence in themselves enough to
> talk and treat a women like an equal, yet still retain their (the men's)
> manliness (whatever the hell that means)?
>
>
>
> J  :]
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>>To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...
>>Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:37:54 -0700
>>
>>Wayner, did it ever cross your mind that perhaps Dale was simply
>>acknowledging reality with his use of the moniker "studly?"  As an
>>experienced and confident male, I am amused by your pathetic conclusion
>>that all men who possess the confidence with woman that you evidently 
>>lack,
>>are automatically in the closet.  Woman are attracted to confident,
>>masculine men, Wayner.  Do you fall, well, short?
>>
>>Don't make reflexive assumptions about your betters pal.
>>
>>Now go do the dishes.
>>
>>-TONY
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Art Deco
>>   To: Vision 2020
>>   Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:15 PM
>>   Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...
>>
>>
>>   Gary,
>>
>>   A few short points, but don't take the first one too seriously or at 
>> all
>>personally:
>>
>>   1.    "... sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar."   Hmmm.   I wonder 
>> what
>>Freud or Rorschach would say about the choice of this particular aphorism
>>in the context of this discussion.
>>
>>   2.    For your consideration, excepted from
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard:
>>
>>   Ted Arthur Haggard (born June 27, 1956) is a former American 
>> evangelical
>>preacher. Known as Pastor Ted to the congregations he has served, he is 
>>the
>>founder and former pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs,
>>Colorado; a founder of the Association of Life-Giving Churches; and was
>>leader of the National Association of Evangelicals from 2003[1] until
>>November 2006.
>>
>>   In November 2006, he resigned or was removed from all of his leadership
>>positions after allegations of homosexual sex and drug abuse were made by
>>Mike Jones, a former male prostitute. Initially Haggard denied even 
>>knowing
>>Mike Jones, but as a media investigation proceeded he acknowledged that
>>some allegations, such as his purchase of methamphetamine, were true. He
>>later added "sexual immorality" to his list of confessions.[2]
>>
>>   ...
>>
>>   Haggard has condemned "homosexual activity.� In the documentary Jesus
>>Camp, one scene shows a sermon where he preaches, "we don't have to debate
>>about what we should think about homosexual activity. Itâ?Ts written in 
>>the
>>Bible."[18] Although Haggard opposes same-sex marriage, he has suggested
>>that there should be civil unions for homosexual couples.[19]
>>
>>   Under Haggard's leadership, the NAE released "For the Health of the
>>Nation: An Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility" in the fall of
>>2004,[20] "a document urging engagement in traditional culture war issues
>>such as abortion and gay marriage but also poverty, education, taxes,
>>welfare and immigration."[20] The NAE has stated that "homosexual 
>>activity,
>>like adulterous relationships, is clearly con­demned in the
>>Scriptures."[21]
>>
>>   Haggard is only one of many religious and political figures, mostly
>>Republican (for example, Spokane's last mayor), who condemned 
>>homosexuality
>>but were discovered to be active, if not ravenous practitioners of such.
>>Clear cases of reaction formation.
>>
>>   To the point:  Did not Haggard exhibit the signs of reaction formation
>>discussed in my post that you so kindly commented upon?  Did not Haggard's
>>own admissions about his feelings and behaviors reveal the truth?  How are
>>the signs shown by Tony, Farris, Cultmaster Douglas Wilson, etc, all who
>>rabidly proclaim the same homophobia any different from the pre-exposure
>>signs which Haggard and his fellow hypocrites exhibited?
>>
>>   When someone salivates, obsesses, and loudly harangues over some other
>>adults' private sexual behavior with other adults, it argues that the
>>salivator is having some real problems themselves.  Further, one would
>>expect a libertarian to roundly condemn such egregious, pathological 
>>forays
>>into matters of personal choice and freedom.
>>
>>   3.    If you or anybody want to debate the morality of homosexuality,
>>then I, and probably a lot others on this list-serve, are completely
>>willing to do so on the basis of observation and reason, but not on the
>>basis of unverifiable religious superstition.
>>
>>   4.    You write:
>>
>>   "Does the fact that you are so vehemently opposed to any type of
>>religious doctrine mean that you harbor messianic tendencies?"
>>
>>   False assumption.  I am vehemently opposed to superstition of all kinds
>>including religious superstition and belief in the supernatural as a basis
>>upon which to make moral, social, or political decisions.  However, many
>>religious ethical dicta (though not in such unyielding firmness and
>>specificity) can be supported by non-superstitious/non-supernatural
>>observations and reasons in many cases.
>>
>>   For your libertarian enjoyment, perhaps you might read The Leviathan
>>http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/hobbes/leviathan-contents.html,
>>by Thomas Hobbes who was basically a nonbeliever (and the founder of 
>>modern
>>libertarianism), as an example of a purely secular defense/explanation of
>>many western moral beliefs.  As a further example, there is a lot of
>>empirical validity to Buddha's description of daily human life -- a
>>description which led him to propose an ethic similar to the Greek Stoics
>>(another group containing nonbelievers/anti-superstitionists). [There is a
>>continuing debate over whether Buddha himself was a believer in the modern
>>sense of the term.]
>>
>>   Since your premise was false, there is no need to discuss your
>>conclusion.  Nice try though.
>>
>>   5.    Speaking of reaction formation:  What would think of a
>>hypothetical man's sexual identity and masculinity issues, a man who would
>>not only rabidly espouse homophobia, but would resort to an utterly
>>ridiculous comb-over, and who would make himself the laughing-stock of 
>>some
>>of his hypothetical GPS caching group by hypothetically naming himself
>>"Studly" in the group?  Does this not remind you of the braggarts about
>>their sexual exploits and fertility whose wives and girlfriends frequently
>>leave them for poor or non-performance, or compensate for their lack of
>>sexual prowess by having affairs with others more skilled or take up
>>needlepoint?  Or which braggarts secretly share Haggard's desires more
>>strongly than their heterosexual desires?
>>
>>   Your humble servant,
>>
>>
>>   Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>>   deco at moscow.com
>>
>>
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: g. crabtree
>>   To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
>>   Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:42 AM
>>   Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...
>>
>>
>>   Wayne,
>>     Psycho babble aside, sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar. you are so
>>vehemently opposed to any type of religious doctrine mean that you harbor
>>messianic tendencies? It would explain quite a lot about how you deal with
>>anyone who might dare to disagree with your exalted point of view and 
>>multi
>>color pronouncements.
>>
>>   g
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     From: Art Deco
>>     To: Vision 2020
>>     Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:29 AM
>>     Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable 
>> them...
>>
>>
>>     Tony,
>>
>>     reaction formation  (plural reaction formations):  In psychoanalysis,
>>a defense mechanism in which somebody condemns something that has a 
>>strong,
>>driving unconscious appeal.
>>
>>
>>     reaction formation is a defense mechanism in which anxiety-producing
>>or unacceptable emotions are replaced by their direct opposites. This
>>mechanism is often characteristic of obsessional neuroses. When this
>>mechanism is overused, especially during the formation of the ego, it can
>>become a permanent character trait. This is often in those with 
>>obsessional
>>character and obsessive personality disorders. This does not imply that 
>>its
>>periodic usage is always obsessional, but that it can lead to obsessional
>>behavior.  Example:  A man who is overly aroused by pornographic material
>>who utilizes reaction formation may take on an attitude of criticism 
>>toward
>>the topic.
>>
>>
>>     REACTION-FORMATION : The blocking of desire by its opposite.
>>"Reaction-formation" is the term Freud uses to describe the mechanism
>>whereby the ego reacts to the impulses of the id by creating an
>>antithetical formation that blocks repressed cathexes. For example, 
>>someone
>>who feels homosexual desire might repress that desire by turning it into
>>hatred for all homosexuals.
>>
>>
>>     Perhaps you and Farris might confront and thus deal directly with 
>> your
>>personal demons discretely in private, rather than so obviously exhibiting
>>them in public.  I am sure that everyone would benefit, especially you and
>>Farris:  both your stultifying repressions and secret frustrations could 
>>be
>>at least partially deadened.  And after you have relived your tensions,
>>perhaps you might be able to pass on your personal experiences with the
>>cure and your newly found contacts to Cultmaster Douglas Wilson and his
>>apparent secret admirer Douglas Jones, both who appear to need such 
>>therapy
>>quite badly.
>>
>>     Your internally inconsistent post also reveals the grave doubts you
>>have about your masculinity and sexual identity when you have to resort to
>>posting outright lies.  For example:
>>
>>     "Saundra's determination to avoid reality by choosing to doubt what
>>has by now become commonplace, rather than investigate, is disappointing 
>>if
>>not surprising."
>>
>>
>>     Included in this thread is a post by Saundra giving the URL to the
>>story from the Chicago Tribune which casts a very different light on the
>>story posted originally by the salivating, non-critical Farris.  Saundra
>>investigated; you did not.  It is one thing for you and the gullible,
>>narrow-witted Farris to delude yourselves thinking you are agent
>>provocateurs, but, in reality, quite another to so clearly exhibit
>>yourselves as sexually frustrated liars.
>>
>>     Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>>     deco at moscow.com
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>>     To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>>     Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>     Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:21 AM
>>     Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable 
>> them...
>>
>>
>>     > Wow Doug, you really flushed out the extremist, sodomite activists
>>with your
>>     > entirely reasonable and justified outrage over the public school's
>>abhorrent
>>     > support for inappropriate, dirty and unhealthy behaviors. 
>> Saundra's
>>     > determination to avoid reality by choosing to doubt what has by now
>>become
>>     > commonplace, rather than investigate, is disappointing if not
>>surprising.
>>     >
>>     > And how about Wayne's complete refusal to address your message in
>>favor of a
>>     > masturbatory fit of name calling?  You know you have hit upon the
>>truth in a
>>     > persuasive manner when these folks, who seem determined to defend
>>the
>>     > indefensible, respond in a childlike snit.
>>     >
>>     > Keep up the good work partner.
>>     >
>>     > Best,   -Tony
>>     > ----- Original Message -----
>>     > From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>>     > To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>     > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 7:25 AM
>>     > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And you all say that we have a political
>>agenda?!
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >> Replaying:
>>     >>
>>     >> This kind of right wing/religious bullshit is what happens when
>>misguided,
>>     >> stupid, and/or tyrannical people depend on superstition for their
>>moral
>>     >> beliefs rather than observation and reasoning.
>>     >>
>>     >> W.
>>     >> ----- Original Message -----
>>     >> From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
>>     >> To: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>; 
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>     >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:31 PM
>>     >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And you all say that we have a political
>>     >> agenda?!
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>> Note Waltz's final comment, "All our kids are great kids, whether
>>they
>>     >>> are
>>     >>> gay or straight," is, I believe, the point of these classes.  Too
>>bad she
>>     >>> doesn't get it.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Strange the Trib article doesn't even mention the nondisclosure
>>contract
>>     >>> bit, which, if true, would be a significant issue for the press.
>>I
>>     >>> seriously doubt there is anything to the claim students have to
>>sign a
>>     >>> contract promising "not to tell their parents."  Public school
>>folks who
>>     >>> work with teenagers know they tell everything--to everyone, 
>> except
>>maybe
>>     >>> their parents, until they turn 40 and around the dinner table 
>> tell
>>us all
>>     >>> that stuff we really don't want to know now.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Mrs. Walz's  daughter was hurt when her beliefs were challenged.
>>But
>>     >>> that's
>>     >>> how kids grow, and adults, too.  To be called on to examine ones
>>beliefs
>>     >>> is
>>     >>> not to say they are necessarily wrong; but as one who grew up
>>believing
>>     >>> pretty much what Mrs Walz would have her daughter believe, I wish
>>someone
>>     >>> had challenged my attitudes when I was 17 or so.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Thanks for the lin.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Sue Hovey
>>     >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>     >gt;> From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>
>>     >>> To: "'Sue Hovey'" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>     >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:01 AM
>>     >>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] And you all say that we have a 
>> political
>>     >>> agenda?!
>>     >>>
>>     >>>
>>     >>>> Hi Sue,
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> You might want to check out this link to a story that was in the
>>Chicago
>>     >>>> Trib:
>>     >>>> http://tinyurl.com/2arte6
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> Not surprisingly, the story is actually quite a bit different
>>than the
>>     >>>> drivel Doug Farris wants us to believe.  Seems to me the
>>religious
>>     >>>> reactionaries need to get their stories straight -- it's hard to
>>make
>>     >>>> the
>>     >>>> argument about the whole nonsense of some confidentiality
>>contract when
>>     >>>> everyone knows about the event in advance and parents can opt to
>>not
>>     >>>> have
>>     >>>> their children participate.  Notice, too, the names & how Ellen
>>Waltz,
>>     >>>> whose name appears in the Trib, seems to be changing her story
>>:-P
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> Saundra Lund
>>     >>>> Moscow, ID
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
>>people to
>>     >>>> do
>>     >>>> nothing.
>>     >>>> - Edmund Burke
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006
>>through life
>>     >>>> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
>>     >>>> reproduce
>>     >>>> outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
>>permission of
>>     >>>> the author.*****
>>
>>
>>
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