[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: FW: Words Bring Pause

Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Mon Mar 12 23:32:17 PDT 2007


I totally agree with this.  I'm teaching myself Japanese, and it's a 
difficult task.  I can say some basic sentences, I know a few common 
phrases, a smattering of the vocabulary, I've learned a bit about the 
culture, and I have learned much of the rhythym of the language and can 
more easily discern words I know when listening to a person speaking 
Japanese.

I have the benefit of being able to afford a few books, a couple of 
dictionaries, one massive kanji reference, some computer programs, and 
numerous Japanese-language movies and TV shows and a TV and DVD player I 
can use to play them on.  I also have the luxury of an Internet 
connection, a home computer or two, and happen to speak the predominant 
language of the 'Net.

I don't know how someone who has arrived in this country, for whatever 
reason, with no friends who speak English and almost no interaction with 
people who do and no money for the items mentioned above is supposed to 
just pick it up.

I also have the luxury, which many of us take for granted, of living in 
a situation where I have the freedom to learn the language myself before 
emigrating to the country (should I ever choose to do so).  That's not 
true of many of our immigrants, both legal and illegal.  My country, for 
instance, is not at war (well except for Iraq, but I'm not counting 
that).  I'm not dirt poor and in danger of starving to death.  My 
government hasn't labeled me a dissident (that I know of) and I'm not in 
fear for my life. 

So instead of jumping on foreigners who haven't yet learned the language 
for not being respectful of our culture (I'm not talking to you, Art, 
just in general), maybe we should try to be helpful instead?  Ponder for 
a while what you know of your own ancestors and what the reasons were 
that they emigrated here in the first place.

I'd rather live in a country that the world envies and fights for the 
right to become a citizen of than one that everyone leaves alone because 
it's too insular and inbred.

Paul

Art Deco wrote:

> Perhaps one or two comments might be helpful to some in this debate.
>  
> 1.    Besides the time commitment, there are several difficulties in 
> learning to speak or write a new language.  Learning to write a new 
> language is difficult if one can only write marginally in their own 
> language.  Despite major progress in teaching ESL, it is not easy to 
> teach or to learn due to a wide variety of learning and teaching 
> styles and rates that need to be matched for optimal learning.  Hence, 
> besides motivation and time, other factors can be a significant 
> deterrent.  There are some fine computer based language learning tools 
> available, but many of those wishing to learn a language do not have 
> either the hardware or software readily at hand or can afford it.
>  
> That is not to say a person choosing to work or to reside for a 
> significant length of time in another country should not make an 
> effort to learn the language of that country (and also come to 
> understand other cultural significances).  But it is not like waving a 
> magic wand.  To take advantage of the needed resources to learn a new 
> language, the resources need to be available at a time when they can 
> be used.
>  
> 2.    Having been a systems engineer for a long time and part of whose 
> mantra is to make things as easy and foolproof as possible, I think 
> that making multilingual labels and signs helps both the client and 
> the provider in any situation to meet both of their goals easier.  To 
> fail to do so argues a lack of basic human concern and a fundamental 
> short-sightedness of basic organizational goals.  Perhaps one deciding 
> factor is the expense in any particular case. In many cases the 
> expense would be negligible compared to the gain achieved. 
>  
> Having lived in or traveled to many places that were multilingual, I 
> found that the businessperson who accommodates his customers by using 
> multiple languages to communicate will be more successful in the long 
> run.  Doing this builds good will immediately and in the long run.  
> Not doing it builds bad will that is likely to last long after those 
> not treated considerately have long learned the language.  They will 
> go elsewhere with their business ever after.
>  
> The same can be said of government agencies whose job is to serve the 
> public.  That is not to say that every single form, procedure manual, 
> or employee needs to be bilingual or trilingual, etc.  But much time 
> is saved and service rendered by making the more common signs and 
> forms bilingual where appropriate, and in some services having some 
> bilingual service persons saves a lot of hassle for all, e.g. law 
> enforcement and medical/health service facilities.
>  
> I remember when I was in a saturation course with many others, all 
> college graduates, attempting to gain a basic speaking and writing 
> ability in another language.  It was a tough go for all of us despite 
> the time allotted for us to learn and the selection process in 
> choosing who was to be given this training.
>  
> If both parents are working long hours and needing besides to devote 
> time to basic household and parenting tasks, there is a fatigue factor 
> as well as a time factor associated with learning a new language.  It 
> is true what you would naturally expect:  fatigue slows and 
> discombobulates the learning process.
>  
> A little patience, understanding, help, and humanity might be in order.
>  
> W.
>  
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Kai Eiselein, editor <mailto:editor at lataheagle.com>
> *To:* Vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2007 2:41 PM
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] FW: Words Bring Pause
>
> Ok, so one can expect to see things labeled in English and Japanese in 
> Hawaii, mainly because of businesses catering to Japanese tourists. As 
> a matter of fact, I was the only American in the group I went scuba 
> diving with, everyone else was Japanese, with the exception of one 
> divemaster, and even he spoke Japanese fluently.
> Frankly, I didn't notice a language smorgasbord on Oahu, just a lot of 
> Japanese signage and Japanese languge TV shows. Most of the 
> non-Japanese tourists I ran into were either Aussies and Kiwis, who 
> speak a strange dialect of English, LOL..
> One would also expect to see signs and such in English and Spanish 
> along the US/Mexico border. I will be in Nogales, AZ next month, and I 
> fully expect I'll need to speak English, Spanish and Spanglish while 
> there. No problem, in a matter of hours of arriving, it'll be like I 
> never left.
> But should I have to speak Spanish in, say, Idaho? No I shouldn't, yet 
> I needed to a couple of weeks ago while in the Boise area, because 
> most of the hotel staff did not speak Engish at all. In order to 
> communicate my needs, I had to speak Spanish. Was it the end of the 
> world? No. Was it annoying? Yes, why should I have to switch to a 
> foreign language in order to communicate in my own country? I 
> shouldn't have to.
> I think English should be the official language of the US.
> If businesses want to deal in more than one language to attract 
> customers, that is their choice. I don't feel that Joe Taxpayer should 
> have to pay for government documents to be printed in every language 
> on the planet.
> I think speaking more than one language is great, the more the better, 
> but in my home country I should only NEED to speak one.
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]*On Behalf Of *Sue Hovey
> *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2007 1:18 PM
> *To:* Donovan Arnold; keely emerinemix; vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
>
> OK,  I guess we can agree to disagree on the English language mandate. 
>  
> But would you humor me on this one?  You said:
>  
> If you haven't bought anything where the directions were primarily 
> Spanish it is because you haven't bought anything in a community that 
> is in the Southwestern United States. You probably buy your stuff in 
> Moscow or Spokane that is 98% White not 40% White.
>  
> I believe in buying locally so I don't tend to run off to Arizona or 
> California to buy products. If they are sold there and not shipped 
> out, why does that create a problem for you?  And I really would like 
> an example.  It's not that I'm unwilling to  believe you, I just want 
> to know what one might be.  
>  
> Actually for the past three months I have done all my buying in 
> Hawaii--lucky me.  There are many things I love about this wonderful 
> state, and among them is the benefit of its linguistic diversity.  I 
> don't buy many products here that need directions, but it's great fun 
> to shop for groceries where one runs into labels printed in many 
> languages--of course one can shop in World Market in Spokane and do 
> the same thing.
>  
> Sue
>  
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>     *From:* Donovan Arnold <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>     *To:* Sue Hovey <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com> ; keely emerinemix
>     <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com> ; vision2020 at moscow.com
>     <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>     *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2007 5:12 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
>
>     Sue,
>      
>     You wrote:
>      
>     "Donovan, Your contention that those who don't speak English are
>     rude and make everyone cater to them is a pretty narrow view of
>     the conditions of many non-English speakers."
>      
>     This is a false representation of what I said. I said I have the
>     deepest respect for those that try to learn the language and spite
>     for those that don't.
>      
>     Unless you are mentally incapable, which I doubt most non-English
>     speaking people in this country are, you should be attempting to
>     learn the language. Further businesses and other agencies that
>     print everything in two or 20 languages are only allowing them to
>     not learn.
>      
>     Many millions of people come into this country and refuse to learn
>     the language, they stay in cities like LA, Phoenix, and Las Vegas
>     where everything is in their language. They get jobs, go shopping,
>     and drive on the roads, not knowing more than three words in
>     English and don't care to learn it. I am not talking about people
>     65 who grew up in an other country until last week, I am talking
>     about people 18-50 that have lived the better half of their life
>     in this country, and people that refuse to teach English to their
>     children.  
>      
>     Anyone that really wants to learn English can learn English. I
>     also believe that it is a serious danger to the lives of people in
>     this country when people cannot communicate because of a language
>     barrier, it happens everyday, in emergency situations, or
>     situations that quickly because emergency situations because of a
>     lack of communication.
>      
>     Yes Sue, all the cultures that have come to the US have learned to
>     speak English. There are no major cities in the United States
>     where the majority speaks German, the Germans learned English, as
>     did the French, the Italians, the Greeks, the Spanish, the
>     Russians, the Swedish, Japanese, all did, even the Slaves that
>     were forbidden by law from reading learned to speak English.
>      
>     We have to have one language as a matter of necessity, you have
>     road signs, government literature, communications over the radio,
>     TV and Internet, the language of government meetings, the words on
>     printed money etc, can be only adequately done in one language. No
>     one person chose the English language we all agreed to it many
>     years ago because it gave us the greatest opportunity in the world.
>      
>     If you haven't bought anything where the directions were primarily
>     Spanish it is because you haven't bought anything in a community
>     that is in the Southwestern United States. You probably buy your
>     stuff in Moscow or Spokane that is 98% White not 40% White.
>      
>     Not having everyone speak one language is not only an
>     inconvenience, it is also a danger to our society.
>      
>     Further, I don't even think you should be able to get a driver's
>     license without being able to speak English.
>      
>     Best,
>      
>     Donovan
>      
>      
>     */Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>/* wrote:
>
>         Donovan, Your contention that those who don't speak English
>         are rude and make everyone cater to them is a pretty narrow
>         view of the conditions of many non-English speakers.  Some of
>         them are elderly with limited  opportunities to learn English,
>         many of them are eager to learn and seek out classes only to
>         find they cannot afford the tuition or the classes are full. 
>         Others, and I have known numbers of them, struggle to learn as
>         much as they can while they clean the houses, pick the fruit,
>         and care for the children of the more affluent.
>          
>         I think I might not so much mind the misguided efforts of
>         arrogant lawmakers, if in their haste to proclaim English as
>         our national language, they also passed laws to facilitate
>         that learning for non-English speaking adults.  Fortunately we
>         do have programs in place for school age children, but
>         even today there is a national movement to deny many of these
>         children education services. 
>          
>         You state that all of our prior immigrants learned to speak
>         English, surely you know that is not so.  Certainly you are
>         correct that being unable to speak English does hinder those
>         who need to make a living here.  I don't think you actually
>         meant to say English is an American invention--sometimes even
>         those of us who speak it don't get it right all the time. 
>          
>         I do see products with Spanish as well as English
>         instructions, but unless they are imports, Donovan, Your
>         contention that those who don't speak English are rude and
>         make everyone cater to them is a pretty narrow view of the
>         conditions of many non-English speakers. 
>         Sue
>          
>          
>          
>          
>
>             ----- Original Message -----
>             *From:* Donovan Arnold <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>             *To:* Sue Hovey <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com> ; keely
>             emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com> ;
>             vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>             *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2007 7:14 PM
>             *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
>
>             Now the good Senator can go to Somalia and give the same
>             speech to them, as they too have also elected to make
>             Somalia and English their official languages.
>              
>             I think helping those that cannot speak English in this
>             country is wonderful. However, I think not learning to
>             speak the language simple keeps those individuals down in
>             society and hinders society as well.
>              
>             In the sheltered world of Northern Idaho, Spanish is by
>             far a second language, but in many other parts of the
>             west, in an increasing number of places, English is the
>             second language and most the people on the street are
>             speaking Spanish, not English, the signs are in Spanish
>             and if you do not speak Spanish you often find yourself
>             unable to ask the person next to you or an employee at a
>             business a question.
>              
>             Even instructions on some products are primarily in
>             Spanish, with English as the second language.
>              
>             The US is a nation of immigrants, Spanish, German, French,
>             Italian Greek, Swedish, Irish, Arabic, Asian, African,
>             Eskimo, etc. But they all learned to speak English. It
>             isn't favoritism, it even an American invention, it isn't
>             superiority, and it certainly isn't the most sensible,
>             logical, or easiest language to master, but they all, all,
>             even the poor ones, learned to speak the language. They
>             didn't try to change the country to their culture and
>             language, they added too it, they didn't destroy it,
>             ignore it, or disrespect it.
>              
>             In the United States we speak English. To refuse to speak
>             the language of the people in the country you choose to
>             live in is rude and disrespectful to those in it.
>              
>             I have the deepest respect for the people that come here
>             and learn the language, but I have nothing but spite for
>             those that come here and refuse to help out and make
>             everyone cater to them.
>              
>             Best,
>              
>             Donovan
>              
>             "If you speak English, Press 1 now. If you don't speak
>             English, learn it, then press 1."
>              
>
>
>             */Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>/* wrote:
>
>                 Edgar Malepeai is a very special person and a
>                 remarkable teacher. One of
>                 the impacts of legislation such as this is the harm in
>                 inflicts on people
>                 who speak English (in Edgar's case it's beautifully
>                 spoken and articulate as
>                 well) as a second language (or third or fourth)
>                 because there is the implied
>                 message that some languages are superior to others.
>
>                 Some of you may not appreciate the message "numero
>                 dos, para Espanol" but
>                 there are those of us who sometimes push button two
>                 just to make our minds
>                 remember what we used to know pretty well.
>
>                 Closing with a non sequitur: When Governor George Bush
>                 told Texans he was
>                 learning Spanish, Jim Hightower responded, "Now he can
>                 be bi-ignorant."
>
>                 Sue Hovey
>                 ----- Original Message -----
>                 From: "keely emerinemix"
>                 To: ;
>                 Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 2:46 PM
>                 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
>
>
>                 > Thanks to Sen. Malepeai for his clearheaded and
>                 rational comments against
>                 > a
>                 > divisive and unnecessary bill.
>                 >
>                 > keely
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > From: "Tom Hansen"
>                 > To: "Vision 2020"
>                 > Subject: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
>                 > Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:42:03 -0700
>                 >
>                 > >From today's (March 11, 2007) Spokesman Review with
>                 a very special thanks
>                 > to
>                 > State Senator Edgar Malepeai -
>                 >
>                 >
>                 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>                 >
>                 > Words Bring Pause
>                 >
>                 > The Idaho Senate voted 20-15 in favor of Senate Bill
>                 1172, declaring
>                 > English
>                 > to be the official language of Idaho, in a debate
>                 that took a personal
>                 > turn.
>                 >
>                 > "It's not for shutting people out, but bringing
>                 people in," Sen. Mel
>                 > Richardson, R-Idaho Falls, lead sponsor of the bill,
>                 told the Senate.
>                 >
>                 > Sen. Edgar Malepeai, D-Pocatello, said quietly,
>                 "Looking around the
>                 > chamber,
>                 > I think I'm probably the only one that has English
>                 as a second language."
>                 > Malepeai recalled that his late father and uncles
>                 served proudly in the
>                 > U.S.
>                 > military. "They spoke very, very broken English, but
>                 they were proud
>                 > American Samoans," Malepeai said. Democracy and
>                 freedom "is what unifies
>                 > people in this country," he said, "not the English
>                 language." A hush fell
>                 > in
>                 > the Senate after Malepeai's comments, and no one
>                 else debated the bill.
>                 >
>                 >
>                 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>                 >
>                 > Seeya round town, Moscow.
>                 >
>                 > Tom Hansen
>                 > Moscow, Idaho
>                 >
>                 > "I love my country but fear my government."
>                 >
>                 > - Author Unknown
>                 >
>                 >
>                 >
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