[Vision2020] Christ is Commander-in-Chief

[nickgier at adelphia.net]

Greetings:

I would like to respond to Gary Crabtree's latest with this hypothetical:

Let's say that I post a one paragraph history of locksmithing and Crabtree takes serious objection to it.  

Would he take me seriously if I said that I refuse to read his extensive writings on the web about locks?  Would he respect me if I admitted that I stopped reading his posts after two paragraphs? Definitely not. 

How would he react if I said that he was just showing off and had a big head?  I'm sure he would think that I was being a tad defensive and evasive.  We respect his expertise, but those who make a living by thinking critically and researching subjects thoroughly get no respect, especially from conservatives on this list and nationwide.

Let me remind Visionaries that Crabtree raised the issue of relative violence and body count.  Let me repeat that this is not the focus of my book at all.  It's his issue not mine.

Crabtree now says that I unfairly took information from the early history of a more peaceful Islam, but earlier he claimed that Islam had big lead on Christianity before 1095.  Which will it be?

Crabtree speaks of Islamic violence in the "modern period."  Can he verify any major violent events from the Emperor Aurangzeb (1618-1717), the most intolerant of the Mughuls, to the suppression of Christians and animists in present day Sudan?  

Saddam does not count because his atrocities were not motivated by religion. One always has to be reminded that the Iranian revolution against our corrupt Shah was a nonviolent movement led by the Ayatollah Khomeini from Paris.

I just re-read Karen Armstrong's chapter on Islam from 1700-1870 ("The Battle for God"), and in Egypt we find that Muhammad Ali made Jews and Christians full citizens of his country (p. 119).  Turning to Iran we find no religious violence except for the short outburst of the Babis in 1849-50 (p. 131).  The causalities pale in comparison with the Christian Taipings in China, who killed far more people than Mao ever did.

The Armenian genocide was an ethnic cleansing by secular Turks, not religious fundamentalists.  As Armstrong states: "secular nationalism could be lethal and certainly as dangerous as the crusades and purges conducted in the name of religion" (p. 191).

The Muslim Brotherhood , founded in Egypt in 1928, was a peaceful organization until the first Israel-Arab war.  Members of the terrorist wing have been in and out of jail under Egypt's secular rulers.  

It is significant to note that Hamas is a Palestinian offshoot of the Brotherhood which was funded by the Israeli CIA to counter Yasar Arafat.  This was just as stupid as our CIA's decision to fund the Afghan jihadis against the Soviet Union. Talk about blow-back!

Ooops!  I've gone far beyond two paragraphs.  Sorry, but these issues are complex and cannot be summarized in one paragraph.  

I afraid that one paragraph summaries have been the way that Bush has led the country for 6 1/2 years.

Nick Gier

"Gary Crabtree raised that issue and I thought that his historical summary was so off the mark that I needed to respond."
Mr. Gier, In your response you cherry pick statistics for the early years of Islam to place Christianity in the most unfavorable light (absolutely no surprise there), totally overlook muslim on muslim violence, and totally ignore muslim belligerence in the modern era. Numbers are always subject to debate but I stand by my original statement. As others have rightly pointed out, It's a silly and pointless argument especially when separated from the original topic.
 
Sorry it took so long to respond. Till it was brought to my attention in an off list post, I was unaware of your attempt to set me straight. It pains me to admit that I (and I suspect many) delete any post of yours that runs more then a paragraph of two. I also avoid ***.class.uidaho.edu/ngier along with ***.newwest. with the same diligence I apply to insurance come ons and porn sites. Life is just too short to do justice to the wonder which is you and I'll not insult you by starting now and only be able to devote my remaining 40/50 or so years to the task.
 
g