[Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
g. crabtree
jampot at adelphia.net
Thu Jun 7 06:32:31 PDT 2007
Right you are for a change, hansen. The council as a whole, not its most
juvenile, biased, and strident member.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
To: "'g. crabtree'" <jampot at adelphia.net>; "'Craine Kit'"
<kcraine at verizon.net>; "'Vision 2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>g stated:
>
> "Why is pitching a very public fit a better response to last minute
> information rather than tabling the matter for later consideration?"
>
> Yes. I will admit that Councilman Ament was a bit upset concerning the
> city
> staff's continuous lack of punctuality on getting information to members
> of
> the city council.
>
> Councilman Ament has, in the past, made motions to delay decisions on
> various council matters based upon the staff's lack of punctuality. More
> often than not these motions had been voted down.
>
> Are you suggesting, g, that the city staff is NOT at fault and that,
> perhaps, Councilman Ament should simply enroll in a speed reading course?
>
> Excuse me, but last time I checked city protocol, the staff answers to the
> council, not vice-versa.
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>
> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of g. crabtree
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:14 AM
> To: Craine Kit; Vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>
> In reverse order;
>
> Actually many people "provoke" a negative response from me, being female
> doesn't make you anything special.
>
> A decision based on incomplete information is almost always not a good
> one.
>
> Reread my comments. Perhaps even respond to my actual point. Why is
> pitching
>
> a very public fit a better response to last minute information rather than
> tabling the matter for later consideration? Barring that why not everyone
> simply take a few minutes and read the information presented? It would use
> up less time than ranting and be more productive and sure as hell more
> considerate and mature.
>
> Lastly, I can generally tell that you are not hansen despite some striking
> similarities. In this case I feel sure I made that clear by writing,"in
> an
> aside to hansen." This is an open forum and when people post they are not
> posting privately or nessaccarily directly or exclusively to the sender.
> If
>
> you want one on one get yourself a pen pal.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>
>
>> Excuse me, g.
>>
>> First, I am not "hansen". If you want to piss on him, do it in
>> response to one of his posts.
>>
>> Second, reread my comments. I, as a taxpayer in this city, expect my
>> elected representatives understand what they are voting on before
>> they say yea or nay. I, as a citizen, need to know what information
>> will be used in a decision IF I am going to make an informed comment.
>> Neither I nor the Council can fully consider the consequences of a
>> decision if essential facts are presented as the Councilors walk into
>> a meeting. Staff being allowed to insert information at the last
>> minute is a question of TIMING, not a target of someone's "pique."
>>
>> A decision based on last minute input is NOT necessarily a good one.
>>
>> Kit Craine (a female who always provikes a negative response from g.)
>>
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 3:42 PM, g. crabtree wrote:
>>
>>> "When important information arrives too
>>> late to fit into the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled
>>> until the next meeting."
>>>
>>> So why does Ament not simply make that motion? In what way is the
>>> process improved by his treating the staff and the audience both
>>> televised and in attendance to yet another of his famous fits of
>>> pique? I would think that there will always be the potential for
>>> new or updated information to come in after the meetings agenda has
>>> been set and the packets put together, running down the staff for
>>> trying to make sure he has the most up to date information possible
>>> is unappreciative and crass.
>>>
>>> As an aside for hansen: As a youth, had I told one of my peers to
>>> "shut up" I would have likely been admonished and sent on my way.
>>> Had I thrown a public hissy fit, spreading my juvenile attitude
>>> over people who were trying to help me, I'd most certainly have
>>> been shown a far harsher discipline.
>>>
>>> g
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
>>> To: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>; "Vision 2020"
>>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> Cc: "Stout Bob" <bstout at ci.moscow.id.us>; "Ament Aaron"
>>> <aaronament at moscow.com>; "Lambert Bill" <blambert at ci.moscow.id.us>;
>>> "Chaney Nancy" <nchaney at ci.moscow.id.us>; <sears at moscow.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>>>
>>>
>>>> I agree with Aaron Ament. The City Council is conducting the people's
>>>> business: making contracts, passing laws, and--most importantly--
>>>> spending our money. Just as a smart person takes time to read and
>>>> understand the fine print in a contract before signing it, I expect
>>>> our representatives to do no less when committing our community and
>>>> our dollars to something.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, we--the people--have a right to participate in our
>>>> government. We should be able to review the same information the
>>>> Council will see so we can make informed comments.
>>>>
>>>> Neither the Council nor the people can do their jobs well when
>>>> pertinent information is not available until just before a decision
>>>> is made. That has nothing to do with the competence of the staff and
>>>> everything to do with timing. When important information arrives too
>>>> late to fit into the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled
>>>> until the next meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Kit Craine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 5, 2007, at 4:12 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Visionaires:
>>>>>
>>>>> No matter how you feel about the issue that was under discussion,
>>>>> I am
>>>>> absolutely appalled at John Weber's behavior during last night's
>>>>> City
>>>>> Council meeting :-( For him to publicly tell another Council
>>>>> member with
>>>>> whom he disagrees to "shut up" is simply beyond the pale. Stupid
>>>>> mistakes
>>>>> like that do far more to harm our community than do honest
>>>>> disagreements.
>>>>>
>>>>> What happened to your manners, Mr. Weber? Did you not stop to
>>>>> ***think***
>>>>> about your behavior being televised into homes in our community?!?
>>>>> Even my
>>>>> 17-year-old knows it's incredibly rude and disrespectful to tell
>>>>> another to
>>>>> "shut up." She, BTW, was gleefully (I'm sorry to say) horrified
>>>>> reading
>>>>> about your spectacle last night. I had to explain to her I was
>>>>> sure your
>>>>> mother *had* raised you better, but people sometimes make mistakes
>>>>> in the
>>>>> heat of the moment or not, as she well knows, and that when you
>>>>> make a
>>>>> mistake, you apologize, learn from the mistake, and carry on.
>>>>> "Where's his
>>>>> apology?" was her question. It's mine, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> We're waiting for an apology, Mr. Weber -- one is certainly due
>>>>> from you to
>>>>> all who witnessed or read about your rude and disrespectful
>>>>> behavior last
>>>>> night.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Saundra Lund
>>>>> Moscow, ID
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
>>>>> to do
>>>>> nothing.
>>>>> - Edmund Burke
>>>>>
>>>>> Moscow-Pullman Daily News
>>>>>
>>>>> Big-box changes nixed
>>>>> By Omie Drawhorn, Daily News staff writer
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - Page Updated at 12:00:00 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Tempers flared at Monday night's Moscow City Council meeting,
>>>>> during which
>>>>> the council rejected any amendments to the large retail
>>>>> establishment
>>>>> ordinance.
>>>>>
>>>>> "We already have a dark-store ordinance in there that is stronger
>>>>> than what
>>>>> planning and zoning brought us," Councilman Aaron Ament said. "I
>>>>> want to see
>>>>> a cap. A cap would serve this community well. We have a big-box
>>>>> shopping
>>>>> culture that's just about run its course in this country; we're
>>>>> making sure
>>>>> they mitigate for problems they cause the community. Moscow would
>>>>> be crazy
>>>>> to drop all the rest and just let them come into the city on
>>>>> their own
>>>>> terms."
>>>>>
>>>>> Ament went on to say he was frustrated that Moscow city staff
>>>>> members hand
>>>>> him important documents just minutes before the start of a meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I'm so tired of coming to sit down and have people flip papers for
>>>>> me to
>>>>> read," he said. "I seriously read everything put in the packet, and
>>>>> I find
>>>>> it insulting for them to expect me to read it in a couple of
>>>>> minutes."
>>>>>
>>>>> At that point, Councilman John Weber interrupted Ament.
>>>>>
>>>>> "We have pretty qualified people over here who do a very good job;
>>>>> I don't
>>>>> need you running off on them," he said. "Why don't you just shut
>>>>> up?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Moscow Mayor Nancy Chaney said Weber interrupted Ament at "the
>>>>> appropriate
>>>>> time."
>>>>>
>>>>> "I hope we can retrieve a little civility on all sides,"
>>>>> Councilwoman Linda
>>>>> Pall said.
>>>>>
>>>>> The amendments recommended by the planning and zoning commission
>>>>> included:
>>>>>
>>>>> A large retail establishment would have to expand by at least 30
>>>>> percent
>>>>> before it would be required to apply for a conditional use permit;
>>>>>
>>>>> Big-box stores between 40,000 and 65,000 square feet would be
>>>>> subject to the
>>>>> design manual - which includes standards for the exterior and
>>>>> interior of
>>>>> buildings - at the discretion of the board of adjustment;
>>>>>
>>>>> Any business requiring 140 or fewer parking spaces would not be
>>>>> subject to
>>>>> the parking requirements of the design manual;
>>>>>
>>>>> Size be based on gross floor space as opposed to projected roof
>>>>> area,
>>>>> thereby eliminating outdoor storage areas from the calculated square
>>>>> footage.
>>>>>
>>>>> The planning and zoning commission also recommended a guideline for
>>>>> stores
>>>>> that go dark in Moscow to follow.
>>>>>
>>>>> The large retail establishment ordinance, passed in February 2006,
>>>>> requires
>>>>> retail stores with more than 40,000 square feet of gross floor area
>>>>> to apply
>>>>> for a conditional use permit.
>>>>>
>>>>> The council heard public testimony on the proposed amendments May 7.
>>>>>
>>>>> Councilman Bill Lambert said the conditional use permit process
>>>>> already
>>>>> gives the city enough control on which businesses are allowed to
>>>>> locate
>>>>> within the city.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The big-box ordinance as it stands now is a tough enough ordinance
>>>>> we're
>>>>> not going to need (amendments) like this to prevail," he said. "The
>>>>> dark-store issue can be dealt with at the time the conditional use
>>>>> permit is
>>>>> requested."
>>>>>
>>>>> Weber agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>> "With the dark store ordinance, what we have done here is put in
>>>>> some
>>>>> verbiage that would make it almost impossible for anybody from the
>>>>> city to
>>>>> enforce or get a handle on," he said. "We've choked it off to the
>>>>> point that
>>>>> nobody really wants to come here anyway."
>>>>>
>>>>> In other business, the council reversed a board of adjustment
>>>>> decision that
>>>>> granted a conditional use permit for a proposed a Dutch Bros.
>>>>> coffee outlet
>>>>> with a drive-through window at 525 S. Jackson St.
>>>>>
>>>>> QUICKREAD
>>>>>
>>>>> WHAT HAPPENED: The Moscow City Council rejected amendments to the
>>>>> large
>>>>> retail establishment ordinance recommended by the planning and
>>>>> zoning
>>>>> commission.
>>>>>
>>>>> WHAT IT MEANS: The large retail establishment ordinance will not
>>>>> include a
>>>>> size cap. The original dark-store provision remains the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> WHAT HAPPENS NEXT: The ordinance will remain as originally written.
>>>>>
>>>>> WHY YOU SHOULD CARE: The ordinance affects businesses greater than
>>>>> 40,000
>>>>> square feet that want to move into Moscow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Omie Drawhorn can be reached at (208) 882-5561, ext. 234, or by e-
>>>>> mail at
>>>>> odrawhorn at dnews.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>
>>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>
>
>
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