[Vision2020] Mere Christianity!
Joe Campbell
joekc at adelphia.net
Sat Jul 28 18:52:30 PDT 2007
Paul,
This is a wonderful set of questions! Let me tell you what I think about them.
(I haven't read Keely's post yet since it took me so long to write this and my son
needs to eat dinner!)
A fact is just a state of affairs that obtains, something that makes it the case that a
sentence or proposition is true. Keely, Doug, and I (for example) all have religious beliefs
and we think that those beliefs are true, so we all think that there are facts that correspond
to those beliefs. Even if some of our beliefs are based on faith, we still think that there are
facts corresponding to those beliefs. That is just what it is to have a belief, religious or
otherwise.
So I don’t think that facts are opposed to faith, though I agree with the gist of your first
set of questions. Usually when we think of facts we think of physical facts that are
empirically verifiable. I would express the idea behind your first set of questions by
saying that evidence is opposed – in some respect – to faith. I can’t say that I have a good
definition of faith – maybe Keely and Doug can help here. I generally don’t think of it as
an emotion, though in expressing it thoughts lead to love.
The best example that I can think of illustrating faith is my own faith in my wife’s
fidelity. Clearly, this is not based on evidence. If I were to hire a private investigator to
provide evidence of my wife’s fidelity, then I would at the same time be showing my lack
of faith. Thus, I think that faith is opposed to evidence – in some respect.
But suppose that YOU hired a private investigator to check on my wife’s fidelity and that
I were made privy to this information. I don’t think that knowing that my wife is faithful
would compromise my faith in her fidelity. It might even make it stronger. Perhaps this is
why Aquinas thought that knowledge of God’s existence complimented one’s faith. What
I think is that, with true faith, the need for knowledge is absent. Knowledge is not
required for faith but nor does knowledge wreck it.
I’ve written a lot but I’ve only gotten through the first set of questions! Good questions
indeed! Let me just add three things.
First, when we’re dealing with religious texts what we’re dealing with is testimony and
this complicates things a lot! When a student takes a class, for example, he is invited to
accept the testimony of the teacher and the text. If he spent his time trying to establish the
legitimacy of these, little would be learned. Does he not know anything unless he knows
the legitimacy of this testimony? Hopefully not or else most of us know nothing! So the
rules behind testimony are complicated – complicated in ways that would likely yield
different answers to your first set of questions from Keely and Doug than the ones that I
have provided!
Second, I agree with you that threats of circular reasoning surround any religious texts.
But they surround all beliefs if our investigations run deep enough. Can science prove
that there is an external world? Can science prove that the future will be like the past? It
is more likely that these are bedrock beliefs that any inquiry must accept in order to get
going – scientific, religious, or otherwise.
Better to say that religions, etc. work well for the believers but all systems of inquiry run
into trouble when facing the true skeptic. And for this reason, I think that the best that a
religious person can do is to respect all religions equally.
Best, Joe
---- Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
=============
How do either of you reconcile your fact-based religion with faith? If
there turns out to be no non-biblical historical record that Jesus was
resurrected, does that mean that you would stop believing it? If faith
is required, then how can it be fact-based? If faith is required, then
why criticize others for a religion based on emotion and hope? How is
faith different than emotion or hope? If faith has to be "rooted in
fact", then doesn't it cease to be faith?
The reason I suggest "non-biblical" historical records is that trying to
use the books of the Bible to prove the existence of Jesus is a little
like using the books of Harry Potter to prove the existence of Albus
Dumbledore. An objective source that talks about the resurrection of
Jesus would be helpful. I'm not a historian - for all I know there may
be tens of thousands of such accounts, but what if they were shown to be
forgeries or something? Would that affect the level of your belief?
Does Doug Farris really know that much about "all other religions",
anyway? Is there no historical basis for the prophets of Islam (peace
be upon them), for example?
Paul
keely emerinemix wrote:
>
>
> I believe that Christianity is based on evidence of the existence,
> deity, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but I also believe that
> a defense of Christianity from Doug Farris is a little like a defense
> of sharpened math skills from former Enron CEO Ken Lay.
>
> keely
> (who is so techno-inept that it's taken her an hour to figure out how
> to log onto her computer while in Canada)
>
> "And these women that you spit on as they try to change their worlds/
> Are immune to your consultations . . . they're quite aware of what
> they're going through"
> (With apologies to David Bowie)
>
>
> > From: thansen at moscow.com
> > To: heirdoug at netscape.net; joekc at adelphia.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:51:53 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!
> >
> > "As more and more heathens 'choose' to not have children the number
> of Godly
> > souls will increase. If the number of Christian births out number
> the number
> > of Islamic births the battle will be over in 3 or 4 generations."
> >
> > - Doug "No-Clue" Farris (March 10, 2007)
> >
> > Kinda gives you that old-time Christian, warm, fuzzy feeling,
> doesn't it,
> > Joe?
> >
> > Please continue, No-Clue. We're listening.
> >
> > Tom "Born Again Pagan" Hansen
> > Moscow, Idaho
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> > On Behalf Of heirdoug at netscape.net
> > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:39 PM
> > To: joekc at adelphia.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > Is this the sum total of your understanding. ..."something more than
> > mere religious beliefs; maybe they are based on facts rather than
> > emotion. "
> >
> > Do you think and/or believe that one who has mere religious beliefs is
> > fuctioning on emotion and not facts? Then you truly are mislead because
> > the Christian faith is based upon nothing but facts, ie Jesus died and
> > was buried and was raised from the dead on the third day. These are not
> > based upon feelings and emotion. These three things are based upon
> > facts. eye witness accounts of seeing Christ before during and after
> > his death. All of the other religions of the world are based upon
> > feelings and emotion but not Christianity.
> >
> > Doug!
> > ________________________________________________________________________
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