[Vision2020] Moscow's Growth Policies Don't ApplytoWhitman(ordothey?)
david sarff
davesway at hotmail.com
Wed Jan 17 11:45:29 PST 2007
Hi Gary,
I think that because Health and Well Being of the over all citizenry trumps
property right.
Absolute freedom to trade will be guided by that. This is the whole reason
we have to appeal to the powers that be in order to change land uses. The
sale is never an issue.
There is no promises for maximum return nor absolute flexibility to use as
we please.
Madison new that property rights were going to work very well until the
country was “fully peopled” He looked to Europe and saw the complications
that would be coming in the future. If I remember correctly he really
couldn’t work out in his mind what would be the best route but hoped that
our voting system would compensate.
I totally support willing buyer willing seller principals. But the land is a
commons and this will be regulated in some capacity until the State makes a
sweeping revolutionary change of some sort
Thanks for your honesty.
Dave
>
>Mr. London,
> While you are quite correct that I have a propensity to make light of
>any number of topics for no better reason then because I can, I think that
>you missed the point I was attempting to make. If a willing land owner
>wants to sell the development rights to his land to a willing private
>buyer, I am all for it. I look at this as straight up commerce, something
>near and dear to my heart, as I thought I indicated in the closing
>paragraph of my post.
>
>What I think is ridiculous is the concept of forcing others to participate
>in the scheme against their will, whether that be through burning tax
>monies or by coercing the property owner through any of the various and
>sundry means that the hoard has at its disposal.
>
>If the Palouse Land Trust or the Nature Conservancy are willing to give a
>land owner/developer what he wants for his property to halt development (to
>bring this thread back around to its genesis) far be it from me to "make
>fun" of such a transaction. Unless, of course, the occasion demands it. I
>don't insist that you "understand" my motivations.
>
>g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill London
> To: g. crabtree ; Craine Kit ; Vision 2020
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow's Growth Policies Don't Apply
>toWhitman(ordothey?)
>
>
> G-
> I really do not understand why you insist on making fun of the concept
>of landowners preserving their property by transferring the development
>rights.
> The Nature Conservancy is perhaps the best known example of
>organizations that match landowners with a concern for the future with
>donations from people who want to see open space preserved. Conservancy
>groups broker deals like this daily across the US.
> And yes, the Palouse Land Trust is doing the same thing in this region.
> Transfering the development rights maintains the use of the land
>(agricultural, grazing, forest, etc) for benefit of the generations to
>come. What is so hard to understand?
> BL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: g. crabtree
> To: Craine Kit ; Vision 2020
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow's Growth Policies Don't Apply
>toWhitman(ordothey?)
>
>
> Ms. Craine, thank you for the additional information. After reviewing
>the sites you kindly provided, two major questions remain (actually more
>than two but these are the biggies)
>
> 1. Where does the money come from to buy the development rights? An
>already over burdened group of local property owners would be my first (and
>only) guess. Forgive me if I, and many others in the county, don't find
>that path terribly attractive.
>
> 2. What happens when the farmer/landowner quite reasonably doesn't
>want to become involved with a scheme that strips him of a significant
>amount of control over his own property (hint: Thompson property SE corner
>of Mtn. View & Troy Rd.) You Vill co-operate or else, eh bubbi?
>
> It would seem that the only people in this area that would be anxious
>to participate in a boondoggle of this magnitude would be land owners with
>absolutely no desire to ever develop their property and those who have no
>qualms about coercing others to pay for the things they desire but are
>unwilling to pay for themselves. (and, of course, the bureaucrats who will
>obtain a sinecure administrating said plan) Or were you thinking, perhaps,
>of a group such as the MCA picking up the tab? If so, great! How about I
>sell you the development rights to my back yard. It's covered in "valuable
>agricultural soils" as evidenced by the award wining dandelions I produce
>there each summer plus, I wasn't planning on putting a wal-mart back there
>anyway.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g. crabtree"
><jampot at adelphia.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 2:38 PM
> Subject: Fwd: [Vision2020] Moscow's Growth Policies Don't Apply to
>Whitman(ordothey?)
>
>
> > Oops. I noticed some of my links were bad. Here's they are again.
> >
> > Kit
> >
> > On purchasing development rights:
> > http://ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/1263.html
> > http://www.plannersweb.com/wfiles/w140.html
> >
> > On transfering development rights
> > http://ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/1264.html
> > http://government.cce.cornell.edu/doc/html/Transfer%20of%
> > 20Development% 20Rights%20Programs.htm
> > http://www.mass.gov/envir/smart_growth_toolkit/pages/mod-tdr.html
> >
> > On both
> > http://www.wi-ei.org/AgLand/transfer.htm
> > http://dnr.metrokc.gov/wlr/tdr/bank.htm
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> >> From: Craine Kit <kcraine at verizon.net>
> >> Date: January 15, 2007 1:46:46 PM PST
> >> To: Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow's Growth Policies Don't Apply to
> >> Whitman(ordothey?)
> >>
> >> Gary,
> >>
> >> This is an idea that has been around for some time. There are two
> >> approaches. One is for the government or other entities to purchase
> >> the right to develop. The other is trading the right to develop
>from
> >> one property in return for rights to develop something else,
>ususally
> >> at a higher density than is normally allowed. It in either case,
>the
> >> property owner still owns the property and can rent or sell it. He
>or
> >> she just can't develop it. This is an an alternative to pure zoning
> >> restrictions that has been used in many places.
> >>
> >> Here's a limited list of web sites you can check for more
> >> information, including an explanation of how the value of the right
> >> can be calculated. If you want more, try Googling "buying
>development
> >> rights" (without the quotes).
> >>
> >> On purchasing development rights:
> >>
> >> ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/1263.html
> >> www.plannersweb.com/wfiles/w140.html
> >>
> >>
> >> On transfering development rights
> >> ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/1264.html
> >> government.cce.cornell.edu/doc/html/Transfer%20of%20Development%
> >> 20Rights%20Programs.htm
> >> www.mass.gov/envir/smart_growth_toolkit/pages/mod-tdr.html
> >>
> >> On both
> >> www.wi-ei.org/AgLand/transfer.htm
> >> dnr.metrokc.gov/wlr/tdr/bank.htm
> >>
> >> Kit
> >>
> >> On Jan 15, 2007, at 10:53 AM, g. crabtree wrote:
> >>
> >>> What would be the incentive for the property owner to allow his
> >>> land to be tied up in this manner? How is a number/value arrived
>at
> >>> for the development rights? Can you provide an example of where
> >>> this has been "successful elsewhere" along with the details? I can
> >>> see how this would work for farmers/land owners who really do not
> >>> want to let their land go but for a owner who might be looking to
> >>> cash out, I do not see what incentive he would have to
>participate.
> >>> Or is this a program where saying no thank you is not an option?
> >>>
> >>> g
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
> >>> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:26 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow's Growth Policies Don't Apply to
> >>> Whitman(ordothey?)
> >>>
> >>>> Given that the Palouse has very valuable agricultural soils and
>that
> >>>> once these are disturbed they lose productivity, perhaps we
>should
> >>>> protect them by using an approach that has be successful
>elsewhere:
> >>>> as a community, we buy the development rights. In other words, we
> >>> pay
> >>>> farmers to keep their land in production. If, at some point in
>time,
> >>>> the community as a whole prefers development over agriculture, we
> >>> can
> >>>> sell the rights and perhaps make a profit on our investment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Kit Craine
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jan 13, 2007, at 1:42 PM, g. crabtree wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Dave says:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "they (Latah/Whitman co. farmers, presumably) are using their
>land
> >>>>> (as) a lever to maximize profits as they know best, trying to
> >>>>> protect their futures."
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The ag community needs to break its monoculturalistic thinking
>and
> >>>>> adopt
> >>>>> sustainability principles."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Who are we to tell the owners of "the most valuable resource in
>the
> >>>>> area", the palouse soil, how and what to think? As land owners I
>am
> >>>>> certain that they have given the matter more than a little bit
>of
> >>>>> thought. If what you say is truly what you believe, would I be
> >>>>> correct in assuming that you are acquiring farm land as it
>becomes
> >>>>> available and putting your "sustainability principles" into
> >>>>> practice? If not, why? If you are, could you please share with
>us
> >>>>> the details of your experience and profitability?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> g
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "david sarff" <davesway at hotmail.com>
> >>>>> To: <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>; <thansen at moscow.com>;
> >>>>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:36 AM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow's Growth Policies Don't Apply
>to
> >>>>> Whitman(ordothey?)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Matt et.al
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm not so sure that it's a Whitman County vs. City of Moscow
> >>>>> fight; It's a
> >>>>>> constituency struggle. What we have are some city folks who
>want
> >>>>> to live in
> >>>>>> one kind of surroundings and they are surrounded by a pack of
> >>>>> farmers who
> >>>>>> are tired of being pressured and wrestling with economic
> >>>>> realities. Looking
> >>>>>> out for themselves, they are using their land a lever to
>maximize
> >>>>> profits as
> >>>>>> they know best, trying to protect their futures.
> >>>>>> What I would prefer is that city retain its agricultural
> >>>>> foundations and
> >>>>>> integrate them more fully back into the community. Put the
>farmer
> >>>>> square in
> >>>>>> the middle of the community. There are some small signs in
>town,
> >>>>> that this
> >>>>>> is trying to happen.
> >>>>>> The ag community needs to break its monoculturalistic thinking
> >>>>> and adopt
> >>>>>> sustainability principles.
> >>>>>> The Palouse soil is the most valuable natural resource in the
> >>>>> area, if we
> >>>>>> don't work to utilize and enhance this medium, we will all
>loose.
> >>>>>> Don't pave Paradise.
> >>>>>> Dave
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What a great post. I only hope more of these come out in the
>near
> >>>>> future.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And cheers to Whitman for not allowing Moscow to bully them
>with
> >>>>> silly
> >>>>>>> excuses and agendas.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Matt
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> >>>>>>>> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow's Growth Policies Don't Apply to
> >>>>> Whitman (or
> >>>>>>>> dothey?)
> >>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:47:52 -0800
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> >From today's (January 13, 2007) Moscow-Pullman Daily News -
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> OUR VIEW: Moscow's growth policies don't apply to Whitman
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> By Murf Raquet, for the editorial board
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Saturday, January 13, 2007 - Page Updated at 10:20:50 PM
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Political boundaries on the Palouse are clear.Moscow city
> >>>>> limits extend
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> the Washington state border as does the eastern edge of
>Whitman
> >>>>> County.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Both entities have their own regulations to follow when it
> >>>>> comes to
> >>>>>>>> development. Often those rules are similar in that they
>require
> >>>>>>> development
> >>>>>>>> plans to undergo sufficient public scrutiny to protect the
> >>>>> environment.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's time for Moscow to recognize that Whitman County is
> >>> perfectly
> >>>>>>> capable
> >>>>>>>> of determining how and what acreage is developed within it
> >>>>> borders.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Whitman County has all but cleared the way for the Hawkins
> >>>>> Companies of
> >>>>>>>> Boise to develop a 600,000-square-foot retail center along
>the
> >>>>>>>> Pullman-Moscow corridor. The center would abut the state line
> >>>>> and Moscow.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Moscow registered concerns about the effects the development
> >>>>> would have
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>> the aquifers, wetlands and traffic.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Those concerns and others were addressed through the
>Washington
> >>>>> State
> >>>>>>>> Environmental Policy Act, an environmental assessment
>procedure
> >>>>> that is
> >>>>>>> one
> >>>>>>>> of the more stringent in the nation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Whitman County had no legal obligation to consider Moscow's
> >>>>> concerns but
> >>>>>>>> did
> >>>>>>>> so because of Moscow's proximity to the development.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That was the right thing to do.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Moscow is our very close neighbor," said Whitman County
> >>>>> Prosecutor Denis
> >>>>>>>> Tracy. "We have taken extensive steps to take their concerns
> >>> into
> >>>>>>>> consideration. If they have any concerns that are not part of
> >>>>> the SEPA
> >>>>>>>> review the county hopes Moscow will pick up the phone and we
> >>>>> can talk
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> their concerns."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dialogue is a fine way to resolve problems.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now, Moscow must accept the SEPA conclusion and not drag the
> >>> issue
> >>>>>>> through
> >>>>>>>> the court system.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Moscow has every right to determine growth policy within its
> >>>>> city limits.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We hope the city can restrain itself in the future if the
>urge
> >>>>> to impose
> >>>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>>> standards elsewhere pops up again.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My concern is not with what facilities are built on
> >>>>> Washington's side of
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> line, but what resources are used by those resources. As
> >>> has been
> >>>>>>>> discussed
> >>>>>>>> here on Vision 2020, Moscow and Pullman share a common
> >>>>> aquifer. The
> >>>>>>>> primary
> >>>>>>>> concern, in relation to the aquifer and facilities built on
> >>>>> either side
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> the state line, is the "right to use" of that aquifer.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As discussed by guests Rocky Barker, environmental reporter
> >>> (Idaho
> >>>>>>>> Statesman), State Senator Charles Coiner (R-Twin Falls), and
> >>> Prof.
> >>>>>>> Barbara
> >>>>>>>> Cosens, University of Idaho Law School, when "Mary in Moscow"
> >>>>> called in
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>> Thursday's Idaho Public Television's "Dialogue" program, this
> >>>>> decision
> >>>>>>> may
> >>>>>>>> not be made locally, but by the US Supreme Court.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://www.tomandrodna.com/Stuff/Dialogue_011107_01.mp3
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Tom Hansen
> >>>>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects
> >>>>> it to
> >>>>>>> change
> >>>>>>>> and the REALIST adjusts his sails."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - Unknown
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>>>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
>_________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all
> >>>>> the scoop.
> >>>>>>> http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
>_________________________________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >
> >
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>=======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================
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