[Vision2020] Fw: [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
Sue Hovey
suehovey at moscow.com
Thu Feb 22 19:14:49 PST 2007
Meant to send my response to everyone. If it wasn't clear to Tony perhaps
others of you wondered, too.
And I didn't write it exactly as I meant to either. So, Tony, disregard that
reply if you will. Here it is as I meant to write it.
Tony,
Well I meant to say what I said, but I'll put it another way. Teachers need
to affect student learning so the effect is beneficial to the student.
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
> Tony, Well I meant to say what I said, but I'll put it another way.
> Teachers need to affect student learning so that the effect is a
> beneficial to the student.
>
> Sue
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
>
>
>> Being aware, Sue, of your expertise in teaching, I would request that you
>> help me to understand what you mean by "...Their students need a
>> guarantee they are prepared to IMPACT student learning." Did you perhaps
>> mean to say AFFECT student learning, or maybe EFFECT student learning?
>>
>> Curious, -Tony
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
>> To: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 1:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
>>
>>
>>> Pat if you asked me the question, "Why should a teacher have a license
>>> (or
>>> certification), my response to you would never be, "so they won't have
>>> the
>>> stigma for not doing the paperwork demanded." There are many good
>>> reasons
>>> to require teachers to have certification, particularly those who are
>>> paid
>>> from public funds. I will list just a few:
>>>
>>> 1. When teachers come into a classroom for the first time, their
>>> students
>>> need a guarantee they are prepared to impact student learning. The
>>> teacher's first students (and their parents) have a right to expect
>>> those
>>> teachers are prepared to teach. (Just as I have a right to expect a
>>> newly
>>> licensed doctor, accountant, or minister to be prepared to serve my
>>> needs
>>> when I ask for their services.) That's a legitimate reason to require
>>> peparation and the licensure to attest to it for all professions.
>>> Teaching
>>> isn't the proper place for on-the-job training. Not knowing what you
>>> are
>>> doing in the first place does harm to too many young learners.
>>>
>>> 2. Teacher certification does not mean all teachers are equally good,
>>> or
>>> enthusiastic, or even lovable. But it should mean those who have it
>>> know
>>> the content of what they teach, and understand how to teach that content
>>> to
>>> diverse groups of children--English language learners, gifted, other
>>> special
>>> education students, and the numbers of students who come to them as
>>> average
>>> learners eager to learn more.
>>>
>>> 3. Teacher certification means that one who has earned it has spent
>>> several
>>> years preparing to enter a calling that requires they give it the best
>>> they
>>> have to offer. They need to spend time reflecting on what they want to
>>> do,
>>> how to do it well, and what they need to learn in order to teach the
>>> students who are entrusted to their care.
>>>
>>> 4. Teacher certification is just the beginning. New teachers don't
>>> enter
>>> the classroom knowing everything they need to know, but those who have
>>> been
>>> through a certification process have a head start. During my career I
>>> continued to learn from my parents, my students, my colleagues and my
>>> college mentors; and even when I retired I said with some regret, "I
>>> wish I
>>> had known......"
>>>
>>> Sue Hovey
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>>> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:43 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes they do and it makes me wonder one more time what does
>>>> certification
>>>> mean for the student actually learning. A person can be certified to
>>>> teach
>>>> and then be put into a class wherein they know nothing about the
>>>> subject.
>>>> If
>>>> however a teacher is very knowledgeable about the subject, is excited
>>>> about
>>>> it wouldn't they be better for the position? I know these questions are
>>>> put
>>>> to educators and their answer is to make sure that those who are
>>>> 'uncertified' carry some stigma for not doing the paper work demanded.
>>>> But,
>>>> the real test is how well the students know the subject and that is
>>>> rarely
>>>> tested. The students at Logos and other private schools do very well on
>>>> the
>>>> tests to get them into college and a good many of the public ones do
>>>> not.
>>>> I
>>>> know that there are many reasons for that but I am not convinced that a
>>>> teacher being certified is an absolute for imparting knowledge.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>>>> To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:08 AM
>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I won't argue with most of your points, but for the teachers not being
>>>> certified or trained in education the students at Logos seam to do
>>>> remarkably well.
>>>>
>>>> Roger
>>>> -----Original message-----
>>>> From: "J Ford" privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>>>> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:20:35 -0800
>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> Subject: [Spam] Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>>>
>>>>> I am NOT after the people of the Christ Church membership to quit the
>>>>> church, leave town or even change their beliefs. What I AM after is
>>>>> for
>>>> the
>>>>> "leadership" of said organization to fess up, be REAL men and tell the
>>>> truth
>>>>> about their doings and admit to their mistakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wilson is NOT trained as a pastor much less as a pyschologist. Yet,
>>>>> he
>>>>> seems to think he is fit to "counsel" the likes of Sitler and Jamin
>>>>> who
>>>> are
>>>>> serial pedophiles. HE HAS NO BACKGROUND that would allow him to
>>>>> certify
>>>> the
>>>>> "safety" of these creeps being in the midst of the children of Christ
>>>>> Church. Yet HE claimed in the 31 Jan 2007 "open forum" that that is
>>>> exactly
>>>>> what he is doing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Likewise, the "teachers" of Logos and of NSA ARE NOT CERTIFIED or
>>>>> even,
>>>>> in
>>>>> most cases, trained in the educational field. And yet they are
>>>>> teaching
>>>> in
>>>>> both "educational institutions."
>>>>>
>>>>> The financial and ethical goings on with the "leadership" in that
>>>>> church
>>>> are
>>>>> what I object to. And it is the "leadership" of Christ Church who
>>>>> should
>>>>> and will, ultimately, be held responsible for any actions or reactions
>>>> taken
>>>>> towards or against Christ Church.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would hope the membership of the "church" would at least take an
>>>>> honest
>>>>> look at what is happening in, for, with Christ Church.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> J :]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>>>>> >To: debismith at moscow.com, deco at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>>>> >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:51:24 -0800
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Wayne,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I don't doubt that you and others on the site have certain drive
>>>>> >against
>>>>> >the church and Dougs' wrongdoings. I won't condone those. I won't
>>>>> >also
>>>> tell
>>>>> >you to shut up about the church, for that is your free will. I also
>>>>> >understand that the church involved might not suit most standards,
>>>>> >myself
>>>>> >being one. There has been much news that we have all heard about
>>>> involving
>>>>> >this church.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I also don't think they are the anti christ. As well as I don't think
>>>>> >you
>>>>> >do either. I would assume most here understand that you, J, and
>>>>> >others
>>>>> >don't want Doug to die or such, rather get you information out about
>>>>> >what
>>>>> >you disagree with.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I believe that ALL reliogions have their bad apples. I'm catholic and
>>>>> >I
>>>>> >couldn't even begin to defend some of our priests. Just as any
>>>>> >reliogion.
>>>>> >And I'll give it to you, Doug and the CC are very devoted to their
>>>> beliefs,
>>>>> >which they are entitled to.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Trying to beat the answers into us non CC hating group is not the
>>>>> >answer.
>>>>> >Trying to get your point across and pushing the rest aside will do
>>>>> >little
>>>>> >for your cause. If you feel it is your obligation to infome us non
>>>>> >believers of your beliefs, I would think you would do so in a
>>>>> >informative
>>>>> >way, not a blah blah blah manter.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >The more and more you push the more vision members leave and the more
>>>> your
>>>>> >point loses intrest.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Facts remain: CC has not been prosicuted. They have had many question
>>>>> >marks. But most of the church are law abiding citizens, as well as
>>>>> >they
>>>>> >should. Until that changes I choose not to carry into this agenda, as
>>>> well
>>>>> >as I hope that you would choose to respect those that have numerously
>>>>> >attempted to take your beleifs/agenda and take them to your site.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Matt
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>From: <debismith at moscow.com>
>>>>> >>To: <deco at moscow.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>>>> >>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:23:39 GMT
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>Thank you, Wayne. That is exactly the case!
>>>>> >>Debi R-S
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > Debbie writes:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
>>>>> >> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one
>>>>> >> > to
>>>>> >>its
>>>>> >> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Some people on this forum see some of the actions of Christ
>>>>> >> > Church
>>>>> >> > as
>>>> a
>>>>> >> > Moscow issues: zoning, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racism,
>>>>> >> > sexism,
>>>>> >> > homophobia, theocracy, alleged evading of capital gains taxes,
>>>>> >> > misleading or lying at public hearings, effects of on recruitment
>>>> both
>>>>> >> > academic and athletic at the UI, organizational dishonesty, and
>>>>> >>cultism.
>>>>> >> > Some people on this forum also see it as a county-wide forum,
>>>>> >> > not
>>>> just
>>>>> >> > the exclusive domain of certain Moscow users.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Some older people on this forum, whose opinion apparently really
>>>>> >>doesn't
>>>>> >> > count, still remember learning about "Eternal vigilance is the
>>>>> >> > price
>>>> of
>>>>> >> > liberty." Some old people on the forum see those that ignore
>>>>> >> > this
>>>> bit
>>>>> >> > of Jeffersonian wisdom as enablers. For these ignorers/enablers,
>>>>> >> > if
>>>>> >>the
>>>>> >> > Sitler and Wight sexual predator cases, the ways they were
>>>>> >> > handled,
>>>> and
>>>>> >> > their nuances and ramifications for the community did not act as
>>>>> >> > a
>>>>> >> > wake-up call, then probably nothing will.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Some old people have not only read about, but have observed
>>>>> >> > firsthand
>>>>> >> > the effects of cultism on individuals and communities in other
>>>> places,
>>>>> >> > hence are more concerned. Unlike Misters Decker, Becker, et al,
>>>>> >> > some
>>>>> >> > people believe that the some of the outré belief-inspired actions
>>>>> >> > of
>>>>> >> > the cult have damaged and continue to damage the community. Some
>>>>> >> > are
>>>>> >> > concerned about the very active recruitment to the community of
>>>> others
>>>>> >> > by Christ Church who share their outré beliefs and would
>>>>> >> > perpetuate
>>>>> >> > the damaging actions by Christ Church which are promulgated by
>>>>> >> > such
>>>>> >> > beliefs.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > For example, a letter to the Daily News detailing the cruel and
>>>> harmful
>>>>> >> > effects on their child by Douglas Wilson's direct and indirect
>>>> actions
>>>>> >> > with respect to gays is a chilling reminder of the effects of
>>>>> >> > homophobia. [I can repost this letter should some of you be
>>>> unfamiliar
>>>>> >> > with it.] Some people find these kinds of discriminatory/hate
>>>>> >> > driven
>>>>> >> > actions disturbing, wish to live in a community where this kind
>>>>> >> > of
>>>>> >> > discrimination is greatly diminished, and therefore wish to
>>>>> >> > promote
>>>>> >> > a
>>>>> >> > community discussion on this and related issues. The same can
>>>>> >> > said
>>>> be
>>>>> >> > for the issues raised by the recent reposting of the Logos
>>>>> >> > School's
>>>>> >> > complete original announcement of the banning of women from
>>>>> >> > serving
>>>> on
>>>>> >> > the school's board of directors. The same can be said of
>>>>> >> > Wilson's
>>>>> >> > delusional views on antebellum slavery.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Wilson has a complete right to express and to argue for his
>>>>> >> > views,
>>>>> >> > however badly they reflect on the community in the outside world.
>>>> What
>>>>> >> > would reflect even worse for Moscow, in my opinion, is if such
>>>>> >> > views
>>>>> >> > were not rigorously and openly opposed.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Some people do not think it proper to discuss others' religious
>>>>> >>beliefs.
>>>>> >> > The fact is that strongly held religious beliefs prompt actions
>>>> which
>>>>> >> > have community impact, sometimes these impacts are toxic and
>>>>> >> > harmful
>>>> to
>>>>> >> > the general community health, welfare, and pursuit of happiness.
>>>>> >> > To
>>>>> >> > these people who think religious discussions are not proper, I
>>>>> >> > urge
>>>> you
>>>>> >> > to read about the motives of the first European colonists in our
>>>>> >> > country, and whose European experiences gave birth to our
>>>> Constitution.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Debbie further writes:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > "Your Anti-Christ Church rhetoric and hate has suffocated an
>>>> otherwise
>>>>> >> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum."
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Perhaps I am too old to see it otherwise, but Vision 2020 is
>>>>> >> > still a
>>>>> >> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum. There have been
>>>> many
>>>>> >> > local issues discussed. I know for a fact that some of the
>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>> >> > offered here have influenced officials of both city and county
>>>>> >> > government as well as some other organizations.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > There is no doubt a lot of writing about Christ Church and
>>>>> >> > related
>>>>> >> > issues on V 2020 for reasons given above. There are also a lot
>>>>> >> > of
>>>>> >> > writings about things that are not purely city issues; some of
>>>>> >> > these
>>>>> >> > issues are national and global in size, but still in the long run
>>>>> >> > the
>>>>> >> > subjects of these issues will affect Moscow.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Repeating what Debbie wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
>>>>> >> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one
>>>>> >> > to
>>>>> >>its
>>>>> >> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > I hope that even critics of those that write about Christ Church
>>>>> >> > will
>>>>> >> > find the phrase "your OWN" offensive. Is there something that we
>>>>> >> > do
>>>>> >>not
>>>>> >> > know? Are there some individuals who "own" Vision 2020, and
>>>> therefore
>>>>> >> > have the right to tell those of us who are not among the "owners"
>>>> what
>>>>> >> > the "real" Moscow issues are, and consequently what to write
>>>>> >> > about?
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > As has been mentioned many times before, once an unmoderated
>>>>> >> > public
>>>>> >> > forum has been opened, only the very naive would expect it to be
>>>>> >> > confined topic-wise or rhetoric-wise. Public discourse bears
>>>>> >> > fruit,
>>>> in
>>>>> >> > part, because of this wide diversity. As a member of a number of
>>>>> >> > forums, I find that Vision 2020 is superior in at least two ways:
>>>>> >> > It
>>>>> >> > has very little problems with spam, and it has encouraged a great
>>>>> >> > diversity of opinions on issues and of styles of communication,
>>>>> >> > some
>>>> of
>>>>> >> > which have promoted constructive change in the community.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > With respect to the diversity of topics and rhetoric, some people
>>>>> >> > are
>>>>> >> > not comfortable with this degree of freedom of expression. For
>>>>> >> > such
>>>>> >> > people, the one or two seconds it takes to use the delete key
>>>>> >> > remains
>>>> a
>>>>> >> > reasonable option and does not deter the rest of us from reading
>>>>> >> > (or
>>>>> >> > not) what others freely choose to post. For others that are
>>>>> >>exasperated
>>>>> >> > by or otherwise unable to handle the fruits of freedom of
>>>>> >> > expression,
>>>>> >> > there are ways of blocking a particular poster. I have only
>>>>> >> > blocked
>>>>> >>one
>>>>> >> > person. It is not that I wish to exclude his opinions, but I am
>>>> tired
>>>>> >> > of getting his offline poison pen notes. Blocking him provides
>>>>> >> > an
>>>>> >> > option for now to pursuing criminal complaints and/or civil
>>>>> >> > actions.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > If it is permitted, I'll tell you what bothers me about certain
>>>> posts:
>>>>> >> > Some posters do not believe that it necessary to support with
>>>>> >> > information and argument the opinions they express. Of course
>>>>> >> > they
>>>> are
>>>>> >> > free to do this, but it does not reflect well on themselves nor
>>>>> >> > the
>>>>> >> > positions they espouse.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Wayne A. Fox
>>>>> >> > 1009 Karen Lane
>>>>> >> > PO Box 9421
>>>>> >> > Moscow, ID 83843
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > (208) 882-7975
>>>>> >> > waf at moscow.com
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >> > From: "Debbie Gray" <graylex at yahoo.com>
>>>>> >> > To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>
>>>>> >> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:11 PM
>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > > Exactly. Christ Church isn't alone it its
>>>>> >> > > interpretations of the bible. I grew up in a
>>>>> >> > > fundamentalist bible-thumping born-again household and
>>>>> >> > > heard this same stuff. I understand that people oppose
>>>>> >> > > these ideas and find them harmful. I don't understand
>>>>> >> > > the hate focused on one group. I don't agree with most
>>>>> >> > > of the things they teach but I don't agree with the
>>>>> >> > > catholics (also anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc etc), the
>>>>> >> > > LDS Church (also wanting to keep women in their
>>>>> >> > > 'traditional role'); the Lutherans, the Methodists and
>>>>> >> > > any other flavor of "christian" belief. Where is the
>>>>> >> > > outcry that women can't be Elders in the LDS Church?
>>>>> >> > > Where's our female pope? Look at those Catholic
>>>>> >> > > priests molesting children left and right!
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN
>>>>> >> > > anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever
>>>>> >> > > LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of
>>>>> >> > > discussing Moscow issues. Your Anti-Christ Church
>>>>> >> > > rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful,
>>>>> >> > > infornative, interesting, lively forum. Does anyone
>>>>> >> > > remember PRE-Tom Hansen/Jackie Woolf, etc? I do!!!
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > Debbie Gray
>>>>> >> > > p.s. Tom, I am at home on my home computer (purchased
>>>>> >> > > with wages from the UI), do you want my home address?
>>>>> >> > > Phone #? I hope you like my IP address... i like how
>>>>> >> > > the numbers make such a random pattern. Do i need to
>>>>> >> > > give a permission slip from my spouse or kids that I
>>>>> >> > > am not misusing my personal time?
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > --- kerry becker <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > ---------------------------------
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > The irony is that this stuff happens in many churches.
>>>>> >> > > You know what kind of heyday we could have if we had
>>>>> >> > > a mole like J Ford in the mormon church? Think about
>>>>> >> > > it. Now there's some good stuff. Maybe we could
>>>>> >> > > start an "Outing Churches in Moscow" blog? : )
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > But seriously, there really ISNT a fine line between
>>>>> >> > > "dialogue" and "obsession." It's clear as day which
>>>>> >> > > is which and I believe that's what most are trying to
>>>>> >> > > eliminate in these postings.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > Reminds me of a quote;
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > "Great minds talk about great ideas; average minds
>>>>> >> > > talk about average ideas; small minds talk about other
>>>>> >> > > people.--Anonymous
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>>
>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________________>
>>>>> >> ___________
>>>>> >> > > Get your own web address.
>>>>> >> > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
>>>>> >> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > =========================> =========================> =====
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>>>>> >> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>> >> > > http://www.fsr.net
>>>>> >> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>> >> > >
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>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>---------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>This message was sent by First Step Internet.
>>>>> >> http://www.fsr.com/
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>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
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