[Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
Tony
tonytime at clearwire.net
Thu Feb 22 18:14:38 PST 2007
Being aware, Sue, of your expertise in teaching, I would request that you
help me to understand what you mean by "...Their students need a guarantee
they are prepared to IMPACT student learning." Did you perhaps mean to say
AFFECT student learning, or maybe EFFECT student learning?
Curious, -Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
To: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
> Pat if you asked me the question, "Why should a teacher have a license (or
> certification), my response to you would never be, "so they won't have the
> stigma for not doing the paperwork demanded." There are many good reasons
> to require teachers to have certification, particularly those who are paid
> from public funds. I will list just a few:
>
> 1. When teachers come into a classroom for the first time, their students
> need a guarantee they are prepared to impact student learning. The
> teacher's first students (and their parents) have a right to expect those
> teachers are prepared to teach. (Just as I have a right to expect a newly
> licensed doctor, accountant, or minister to be prepared to serve my needs
> when I ask for their services.) That's a legitimate reason to require
> peparation and the licensure to attest to it for all professions.
> Teaching
> isn't the proper place for on-the-job training. Not knowing what you are
> doing in the first place does harm to too many young learners.
>
> 2. Teacher certification does not mean all teachers are equally good, or
> enthusiastic, or even lovable. But it should mean those who have it know
> the content of what they teach, and understand how to teach that content
> to
> diverse groups of children--English language learners, gifted, other
> special
> education students, and the numbers of students who come to them as
> average
> learners eager to learn more.
>
> 3. Teacher certification means that one who has earned it has spent
> several
> years preparing to enter a calling that requires they give it the best
> they
> have to offer. They need to spend time reflecting on what they want to
> do,
> how to do it well, and what they need to learn in order to teach the
> students who are entrusted to their care.
>
> 4. Teacher certification is just the beginning. New teachers don't enter
> the classroom knowing everything they need to know, but those who have
> been
> through a certification process have a head start. During my career I
> continued to learn from my parents, my students, my colleagues and my
> college mentors; and even when I retired I said with some regret, "I wish
> I
> had known......"
>
> Sue Hovey
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
>
>
>> Yes they do and it makes me wonder one more time what does certification
>> mean for the student actually learning. A person can be certified to
>> teach
>> and then be put into a class wherein they know nothing about the subject.
>> If
>> however a teacher is very knowledgeable about the subject, is excited
>> about
>> it wouldn't they be better for the position? I know these questions are
>> put
>> to educators and their answer is to make sure that those who are
>> 'uncertified' carry some stigma for not doing the paper work demanded.
>> But,
>> the real test is how well the students know the subject and that is
>> rarely
>> tested. The students at Logos and other private schools do very well on
>> the
>> tests to get them into college and a good many of the public ones do not.
>> I
>> know that there are many reasons for that but I am not convinced that a
>> teacher being certified is an absolute for imparting knowledge.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>> To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:08 AM
>> Subject: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
>>
>>
>> I won't argue with most of your points, but for the teachers not being
>> certified or trained in education the students at Logos seam to do
>> remarkably well.
>>
>> Roger
>> -----Original message-----
>> From: "J Ford" privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:20:35 -0800
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: [Spam] Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>
>>> I am NOT after the people of the Christ Church membership to quit the
>>> church, leave town or even change their beliefs. What I AM after is for
>> the
>>> "leadership" of said organization to fess up, be REAL men and tell the
>> truth
>>> about their doings and admit to their mistakes.
>>>
>>> Wilson is NOT trained as a pastor much less as a pyschologist. Yet, he
>>> seems to think he is fit to "counsel" the likes of Sitler and Jamin who
>> are
>>> serial pedophiles. HE HAS NO BACKGROUND that would allow him to certify
>> the
>>> "safety" of these creeps being in the midst of the children of Christ
>>> Church. Yet HE claimed in the 31 Jan 2007 "open forum" that that is
>> exactly
>>> what he is doing.
>>>
>>> Likewise, the "teachers" of Logos and of NSA ARE NOT CERTIFIED or even,
>>> in
>>> most cases, trained in the educational field. And yet they are teaching
>> in
>>> both "educational institutions."
>>>
>>> The financial and ethical goings on with the "leadership" in that church
>> are
>>> what I object to. And it is the "leadership" of Christ Church who
>>> should
>>> and will, ultimately, be held responsible for any actions or reactions
>> taken
>>> towards or against Christ Church.
>>>
>>> I would hope the membership of the "church" would at least take an
>>> honest
>>> look at what is happening in, for, with Christ Church.
>>>
>>>
>>> J :]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>>> >To: debismith at moscow.com, deco at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>> >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:51:24 -0800
>>> >
>>> >Wayne,
>>> >
>>> >I don't doubt that you and others on the site have certain drive
>>> >against
>>> >the church and Dougs' wrongdoings. I won't condone those. I won't also
>> tell
>>> >you to shut up about the church, for that is your free will. I also
>>> >understand that the church involved might not suit most standards,
>>> >myself
>>> >being one. There has been much news that we have all heard about
>> involving
>>> >this church.
>>> >
>>> >I also don't think they are the anti christ. As well as I don't think
>>> >you
>>> >do either. I would assume most here understand that you, J, and others
>>> >don't want Doug to die or such, rather get you information out about
>>> >what
>>> >you disagree with.
>>> >
>>> >I believe that ALL reliogions have their bad apples. I'm catholic and I
>>> >couldn't even begin to defend some of our priests. Just as any
>>> >reliogion.
>>> >And I'll give it to you, Doug and the CC are very devoted to their
>> beliefs,
>>> >which they are entitled to.
>>> >
>>> >Trying to beat the answers into us non CC hating group is not the
>>> >answer.
>>> >Trying to get your point across and pushing the rest aside will do
>>> >little
>>> >for your cause. If you feel it is your obligation to infome us non
>>> >believers of your beliefs, I would think you would do so in a
>>> >informative
>>> >way, not a blah blah blah manter.
>>> >
>>> >The more and more you push the more vision members leave and the more
>> your
>>> >point loses intrest.
>>> >
>>> >Facts remain: CC has not been prosicuted. They have had many question
>>> >marks. But most of the church are law abiding citizens, as well as they
>>> >should. Until that changes I choose not to carry into this agenda, as
>> well
>>> >as I hope that you would choose to respect those that have numerously
>>> >attempted to take your beleifs/agenda and take them to your site.
>>> >
>>> >Matt
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>From: <debismith at moscow.com>
>>> >>To: <deco at moscow.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>> >>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:23:39 GMT
>>> >>
>>> >>Thank you, Wayne. That is exactly the case!
>>> >>Debi R-S
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > Debbie writes:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
>>> >> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one
>>> >> > to
>>> >>its
>>> >> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Some people on this forum see some of the actions of Christ Church
>>> >> > as
>> a
>>> >> > Moscow issues: zoning, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racism,
>>> >> > sexism,
>>> >> > homophobia, theocracy, alleged evading of capital gains taxes,
>>> >> > misleading or lying at public hearings, effects of on recruitment
>> both
>>> >> > academic and athletic at the UI, organizational dishonesty, and
>>> >>cultism.
>>> >> > Some people on this forum also see it as a county-wide forum, not
>> just
>>> >> > the exclusive domain of certain Moscow users.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Some older people on this forum, whose opinion apparently really
>>> >>doesn't
>>> >> > count, still remember learning about "Eternal vigilance is the
>>> >> > price
>> of
>>> >> > liberty." Some old people on the forum see those that ignore this
>> bit
>>> >> > of Jeffersonian wisdom as enablers. For these ignorers/enablers,
>>> >> > if
>>> >>the
>>> >> > Sitler and Wight sexual predator cases, the ways they were handled,
>> and
>>> >> > their nuances and ramifications for the community did not act as a
>>> >> > wake-up call, then probably nothing will.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Some old people have not only read about, but have observed
>>> >> > firsthand
>>> >> > the effects of cultism on individuals and communities in other
>> places,
>>> >> > hence are more concerned. Unlike Misters Decker, Becker, et al,
>>> >> > some
>>> >> > people believe that the some of the outré belief-inspired actions
>>> >> > of
>>> >> > the cult have damaged and continue to damage the community. Some
>>> >> > are
>>> >> > concerned about the very active recruitment to the community of
>> others
>>> >> > by Christ Church who share their outré beliefs and would perpetuate
>>> >> > the damaging actions by Christ Church which are promulgated by such
>>> >> > beliefs.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > For example, a letter to the Daily News detailing the cruel and
>> harmful
>>> >> > effects on their child by Douglas Wilson's direct and indirect
>> actions
>>> >> > with respect to gays is a chilling reminder of the effects of
>>> >> > homophobia. [I can repost this letter should some of you be
>> unfamiliar
>>> >> > with it.] Some people find these kinds of discriminatory/hate
>>> >> > driven
>>> >> > actions disturbing, wish to live in a community where this kind of
>>> >> > discrimination is greatly diminished, and therefore wish to promote
>>> >> > a
>>> >> > community discussion on this and related issues. The same can said
>> be
>>> >> > for the issues raised by the recent reposting of the Logos School's
>>> >> > complete original announcement of the banning of women from serving
>> on
>>> >> > the school's board of directors. The same can be said of Wilson's
>>> >> > delusional views on antebellum slavery.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Wilson has a complete right to express and to argue for his views,
>>> >> > however badly they reflect on the community in the outside world.
>> What
>>> >> > would reflect even worse for Moscow, in my opinion, is if such
>>> >> > views
>>> >> > were not rigorously and openly opposed.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Some people do not think it proper to discuss others' religious
>>> >>beliefs.
>>> >> > The fact is that strongly held religious beliefs prompt actions
>> which
>>> >> > have community impact, sometimes these impacts are toxic and
>>> >> > harmful
>> to
>>> >> > the general community health, welfare, and pursuit of happiness.
>>> >> > To
>>> >> > these people who think religious discussions are not proper, I urge
>> you
>>> >> > to read about the motives of the first European colonists in our
>>> >> > country, and whose European experiences gave birth to our
>> Constitution.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Debbie further writes:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > "Your Anti-Christ Church rhetoric and hate has suffocated an
>> otherwise
>>> >> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum."
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Perhaps I am too old to see it otherwise, but Vision 2020 is still
>>> >> > a
>>> >> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum. There have been
>> many
>>> >> > local issues discussed. I know for a fact that some of the
>>> >> > opinions
>>> >> > offered here have influenced officials of both city and county
>>> >> > government as well as some other organizations.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > There is no doubt a lot of writing about Christ Church and related
>>> >> > issues on V 2020 for reasons given above. There are also a lot of
>>> >> > writings about things that are not purely city issues; some of
>>> >> > these
>>> >> > issues are national and global in size, but still in the long run
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > subjects of these issues will affect Moscow.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Repeating what Debbie wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
>>> >> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one
>>> >> > to
>>> >>its
>>> >> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I hope that even critics of those that write about Christ Church
>>> >> > will
>>> >> > find the phrase "your OWN" offensive. Is there something that we
>>> >> > do
>>> >>not
>>> >> > know? Are there some individuals who "own" Vision 2020, and
>> therefore
>>> >> > have the right to tell those of us who are not among the "owners"
>> what
>>> >> > the "real" Moscow issues are, and consequently what to write about?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > As has been mentioned many times before, once an unmoderated public
>>> >> > forum has been opened, only the very naive would expect it to be
>>> >> > confined topic-wise or rhetoric-wise. Public discourse bears
>>> >> > fruit,
>> in
>>> >> > part, because of this wide diversity. As a member of a number of
>>> >> > forums, I find that Vision 2020 is superior in at least two ways:
>>> >> > It
>>> >> > has very little problems with spam, and it has encouraged a great
>>> >> > diversity of opinions on issues and of styles of communication,
>>> >> > some
>> of
>>> >> > which have promoted constructive change in the community.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > With respect to the diversity of topics and rhetoric, some people
>>> >> > are
>>> >> > not comfortable with this degree of freedom of expression. For
>>> >> > such
>>> >> > people, the one or two seconds it takes to use the delete key
>>> >> > remains
>> a
>>> >> > reasonable option and does not deter the rest of us from reading
>>> >> > (or
>>> >> > not) what others freely choose to post. For others that are
>>> >>exasperated
>>> >> > by or otherwise unable to handle the fruits of freedom of
>>> >> > expression,
>>> >> > there are ways of blocking a particular poster. I have only
>>> >> > blocked
>>> >>one
>>> >> > person. It is not that I wish to exclude his opinions, but I am
>> tired
>>> >> > of getting his offline poison pen notes. Blocking him provides an
>>> >> > option for now to pursuing criminal complaints and/or civil
>>> >> > actions.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > If it is permitted, I'll tell you what bothers me about certain
>> posts:
>>> >> > Some posters do not believe that it necessary to support with
>>> >> > information and argument the opinions they express. Of course they
>> are
>>> >> > free to do this, but it does not reflect well on themselves nor the
>>> >> > positions they espouse.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Wayne A. Fox
>>> >> > 1009 Karen Lane
>>> >> > PO Box 9421
>>> >> > Moscow, ID 83843
>>> >> >
>>> >> > (208) 882-7975
>>> >> > waf at moscow.com
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> > From: "Debbie Gray" <graylex at yahoo.com>
>>> >> > To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>
>>> >> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:11 PM
>>> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > Exactly. Christ Church isn't alone it its
>>> >> > > interpretations of the bible. I grew up in a
>>> >> > > fundamentalist bible-thumping born-again household and
>>> >> > > heard this same stuff. I understand that people oppose
>>> >> > > these ideas and find them harmful. I don't understand
>>> >> > > the hate focused on one group. I don't agree with most
>>> >> > > of the things they teach but I don't agree with the
>>> >> > > catholics (also anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc etc), the
>>> >> > > LDS Church (also wanting to keep women in their
>>> >> > > 'traditional role'); the Lutherans, the Methodists and
>>> >> > > any other flavor of "christian" belief. Where is the
>>> >> > > outcry that women can't be Elders in the LDS Church?
>>> >> > > Where's our female pope? Look at those Catholic
>>> >> > > priests molesting children left and right!
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN
>>> >> > > anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever
>>> >> > > LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of
>>> >> > > discussing Moscow issues. Your Anti-Christ Church
>>> >> > > rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful,
>>> >> > > infornative, interesting, lively forum. Does anyone
>>> >> > > remember PRE-Tom Hansen/Jackie Woolf, etc? I do!!!
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Debbie Gray
>>> >> > > p.s. Tom, I am at home on my home computer (purchased
>>> >> > > with wages from the UI), do you want my home address?
>>> >> > > Phone #? I hope you like my IP address... i like how
>>> >> > > the numbers make such a random pattern. Do i need to
>>> >> > > give a permission slip from my spouse or kids that I
>>> >> > > am not misusing my personal time?
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > --- kerry becker <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > ---------------------------------
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > The irony is that this stuff happens in many churches.
>>> >> > > You know what kind of heyday we could have if we had
>>> >> > > a mole like J Ford in the mormon church? Think about
>>> >> > > it. Now there's some good stuff. Maybe we could
>>> >> > > start an "Outing Churches in Moscow" blog? : )
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > But seriously, there really ISNT a fine line between
>>> >> > > "dialogue" and "obsession." It's clear as day which
>>> >> > > is which and I believe that's what most are trying to
>>> >> > > eliminate in these postings.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Reminds me of a quote;
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > "Great minds talk about great ideas; average minds
>>> >> > > talk about average ideas; small minds talk about other
>>> >> > > people.--Anonymous
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> >
>>>
>>>>_________________________________________________________________________>
>>> >> ___________
>>> >> > > Get your own web address.
>>> >> > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
>>> >> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > =========================> =========================> =====
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>>> >> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>> >> > > http://www.fsr.net
>>> >> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > =========================> =========================> =====
>>> >> > >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>---------------------------------------------
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>>> >> http://www.fsr.com/
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
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