[Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Thu Feb 22 18:03:23 PST 2007
You know what gets me is if there are "so many other topics" that you could
talk about - well, then why doncha? Seems to me you are complaining but
you're not producing....
You have something to talk about - DO IT!
Again - action not just talk. Seems to be the theme for today.
J :]
>From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>To: starbliss at gmail.com, deco at moscow.com
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:58:57 -0800
>
>Ted,
>
>I would agree that a unmoderated list is the only way to go.
>
>Debbie is not asking for that, and neither am I. What we need is educated
>and thoughtful topics, not agenda driven bias, which has controlled the
>blog for some time now. She respectfully asked to take Js' and Waynes'
>oponion somewhere else. Along with anything that controlls the blog. They
>is so much more we can talk about, instead its an obsession with some.
>
>I too could talk about topics for hours, such as the Bears dominance for
>the next 20 years. How they have more hall of famers and had the best team
>ever(85 Bears). That will lead to little though. It would take away from
>the potential this forum has. I respectfully decline to do so, along with
>trying to limit my posts to 3 times a day.
>
>Matt
>
>
>>From: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>
>>To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>>CC: Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:10:59 -0800
>>
>>Wayne et. al.
>>
>>I disagree with much of the content on Vision2020, even some of Wayne's
>>posts, but I agree with him totally on the value of an unmoderated forum
>>such as this; and that for those who don't value discussions about
>>religion
>>or Christ Church, they can ignore or delete those posts.
>>
>>I usually do not find ignoring subjects I have no interest in or find
>>objectionable a problem when I read or participate on Vision2020.
>>
>>Debbie's complaints no doubt express the views of many regarding the
>>dominance of Christ Church issues that sometimes can be found on this list
>>serve. But many others think that these discussions are important Moscow
>>issues, as Wayne argues, which should be an important focus of discussion
>>for very good reasons.
>>
>>Why should Debbie's slant on the proper subject content for Vision2020
>>control the list? Some people have trouble with freedom of speech, it
>>appears.
>>
>>Ted Moffett
>>
>>
>>On 2/21/07, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Debbie writes:
>>>
>>>"I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
>>>church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to its
>>>origins of discussing *Moscow* issues."
>>>
>>>Some people on this forum see some of the actions of Christ Church as a
>>>Moscow issues: zoning, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racism, sexism,
>>>homophobia, theocracy, alleged evading of capital gains taxes, misleading
>>>or
>>>lying at public hearings, effects of on recruitment both academic and
>>>athletic at the UI, organizational dishonesty, and cultism. Some people
>>>on
>>>this forum also see it as a county-wide forum, not just the exclusive
>>>domain of certain Moscow users.
>>>
>>>Some older people on this forum, whose opinion apparently really doesn't
>>>count, still remember learning about *"Eternal vigilance is the price of
>>>liberty."* Some old people on the forum see those that ignore this bit
>>>of
>>>Jeffersonian wisdom as enablers. For these ignorers/enablers, if the
>>>Sitler
>>>and Wight sexual predator cases, the ways they were handled, and their
>>>nuances and ramifications for the community did not act as a wake-up
>>>call,
>>>then probably nothing will.
>>>
>>>Some old people have not only read about, but have observed firsthand the
>>>effects of cultism on individuals and communities in other places, hence
>>>are
>>>more concerned. Unlike Misters Decker, Becker, et al, some people
>>>believe
>>>that the some of the outré belief-inspired actions of the cult have
>>>damaged
>>>and continue to damage the community. Some are concerned about the very
>>>active recruitment to the community of others by Christ Church who share
>>>their outré beliefs and would perpetuate the damaging actions by Christ
>>>Church which are promulgated by such beliefs.
>>>
>>>For example, a letter to the *Daily News* detailing the cruel and harmful
>>>effects on their child by Douglas Wilson's direct and indirect actions
>>>with
>>>respect to gays is a chilling reminder of the effects of homophobia. [I
>>>can
>>>repost this letter should some of you be unfamiliar with it.] Some
>>>people
>>>find these kinds of discriminatory/hate driven actions disturbing, wish
>>>to
>>>live in a community where this kind of discrimination is greatly
>>>diminished,
>>>and therefore wish to promote a community discussion on this and related
>>>issues. The same can said be for the issues raised by the recent
>>>reposting
>>>of the Logos School's complete original announcement of the banning of
>>>women
>>>from serving on the school's board of directors. The same can be said of
>>>Wilson's delusional views on antebellum slavery.
>>>
>>>Wilson has a complete right to express and to argue for his views,
>>>however
>>>badly they reflect on the community in the outside world. What would
>>>reflect even worse for Moscow, in my opinion, is if such views were not
>>>rigorously and openly opposed.
>>>
>>>Some people do not think it proper to discuss others' religious
>>>beliefs. The fact is that strongly held religious beliefs prompt actions
>>>which have community impact, sometimes these impacts are toxic and
>>>harmful
>>>to the general community health, welfare, and pursuit of happiness. To
>>>these people who think religious discussions are not proper, I urge you
>>>to
>>>read about the motives of the first European colonists in our country,
>>>and
>>>whose European experiences gave birth to our Constitution.
>>>
>>>
>>>Debbie further writes:
>>>
>>>"Your Anti-Christ Church rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise
>>>helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum."
>>>
>>>Perhaps I am too old to see it otherwise, but Vision 2020 is still a
>>>helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum. There have been many
>>>local
>>>issues discussed. I know for a fact that some of the opinions offered
>>>here
>>>have influenced officials of both city and county government as well as
>>>some
>>>other organizations.
>>>
>>>There is no doubt a lot of writing about Christ Church and related issues
>>>on V 2020 for reasons given above. There are also a lot of writings
>>>about
>>>things that are not purely city issues; some of these issues are national
>>>and global in size, but still in the long run the subjects of these
>>>issues
>>>will affect Moscow.
>>>
>>>
>>> Repeating what Debbie wrote:
>>>
>>>"I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
>>>church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to its
>>>origins of discussing Moscow issues."
>>>
>>>I hope that even critics of those that write about Christ Church will
>>>find
>>>the phrase "your OWN" offensive. Is there something that we do not know?
>>>Are there some individuals who "own" Vision 2020, and therefore have the
>>>right to tell those of us who are not among the "owners" what the "real"
>>>Moscow issues are, and consequently what to write about?
>>>
>>>As has been mentioned many times before, once an unmoderated public forum
>>>has been opened, only the very naive would expect it to be confined
>>>topic-wise or rhetoric-wise. Public discourse bears fruit, in part,
>>>because
>>>of this wide diversity. As a member of a number of forums, I find that
>>>Vision 2020 is superior in at least two ways: It has very little
>>>problems
>>>with spam, and it has encouraged a great diversity of opinions on issues
>>>and
>>>of styles of communication, *some* of which have promoted constructive
>>>change in the community.
>>>
>>>With respect to the diversity of topics and rhetoric, some people are not
>>>comfortable with this degree of freedom of expression. For such people,
>>>the
>>>one or two seconds it takes to use the delete key remains a
>>>reasonable option and does not deter the rest of us from reading (or not)
>>>what others freely choose to post. For others that are exasperated by or
>>>otherwise unable to handle the fruits of freedom of expression, there are
>>>ways of blocking a particular poster. I have only blocked one person.
>>>It
>>>is not that I wish to exclude his opinions, but I am tired of getting his
>>>offline poison pen notes. Blocking him provides an option for now to
>>>pursuing criminal complaints and/or civil actions.
>>>
>>>If it is permitted, I'll tell you what bothers me about certain posts:
>>>Some posters do not believe that it necessary to support with information
>>>and argument the opinions they express. Of course they are free to do
>>>this,
>>>but it does not reflect well on themselves nor the positions they
>>>espouse.
>>>
>>>
>>>Wayne A. Fox
>>>1009 Karen Lane
>>>PO Box 9421
>>>Moscow, ID 83843
>>>
>>>(208) 882-7975
>>>waf at moscow.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Gray" <graylex at yahoo.com>
>>>To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>
>>>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:11 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>>
>>>
>>> > Exactly. Christ Church isn't alone it its
>>> > interpretations of the bible. I grew up in a
>>> > fundamentalist bible-thumping born-again household and
>>> > heard this same stuff. I understand that people oppose
>>> > these ideas and find them harmful. I don't understand
>>> > the hate focused on one group. I don't agree with most
>>> > of the things they teach but I don't agree with the
>>> > catholics (also anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc etc), the
>>> > LDS Church (also wanting to keep women in their
>>> > 'traditional role'); the Lutherans, the Methodists and
>>> > any other flavor of "christian" belief. Where is the
>>> > outcry that women can't be Elders in the LDS Church?
>>> > Where's our female pope? Look at those Catholic
>>> > priests molesting children left and right!
>>> >
>>> > I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN
>>> > anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever
>>> > LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of
>>> > discussing Moscow issues. Your Anti-Christ Church
>>> > rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful,
>>> > infornative, interesting, lively forum. Does anyone
>>> > remember PRE-Tom Hansen/Jackie Woolf, etc? I do!!!
>>> >
>>> > Debbie Gray
>>> > p.s. Tom, I am at home on my home computer (purchased
>>> > with wages from the UI), do you want my home address?
>>> > Phone #? I hope you like my IP address... i like how
>>> > the numbers make such a random pattern. Do i need to
>>> > give a permission slip from my spouse or kids that I
>>> > am not misusing my personal time?
>>> >
>>> > --- kerry becker <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > The irony is that this stuff happens in many churches.
>>> > You know what kind of heyday we could have if we had
>>> > a mole like J Ford in the mormon church? Think about
>>> > it. Now there's some good stuff. Maybe we could
>>> > start an "Outing Churches in Moscow" blog? : )
>>> >
>>> > But seriously, there really ISNT a fine line between
>>> > "dialogue" and "obsession." It's clear as day which
>>> > is which and I believe that's what most are trying to
>>> > eliminate in these postings.
>>> >
>>> > Reminds me of a quote;
>>> >
>>> > "Great minds talk about great ideas; average minds
>>> > talk about average ideas; small minds talk about other
>>> > people.--Anonymous
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>____________________________________________________________________________________
>>> > Get your own web address.
>>> > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
>>> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
>>> >
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>>> >
>>>
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>
>
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