[Vision2020] [Spam] Re: [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
lfalen
lfalen at turbonet.com
Thu Feb 22 12:36:43 PST 2007
J.
Public schools were not criticized here. What Pat said was that Logos did well. That was not puting MSD down. But since you bring it up, there are a few legitimate things about public schools some people don't like and therefore have a right to send their kids to private schools. Public schools need to be supported and are a way to insure that everyone gets an education. What is wrong with them is that all to often a social agenda is pushed that some people may not agree with. They have a right to school their kids else where. You mensioned spanking. While I am not a big believer in spanking, there are times that it is appropriate.
Roger
P.S. I was a bit too generous in my previous post. I should have said a some of your points may be valid.
-----Original message-----
From: "J Ford" privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:14:59 -0800
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Spam] Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
> Again, Logos' scores have consistently gone down (as is its enrollment)
> while the MSD's scores have risen.
>
> Certification is NOT only about the subject matter the teacher instructs,
> but certifies that the teacher has gone through training in the area of
> child development, some psychology classes, teaching techniques that do NOT
> include spankings, etc.
>
> Obviously, there are issues in public schools - but, they do not include
> giving only those who can afford to attend a particular school. If we went
> "private" only for schooling, we would quickly be back to the time period
> where only the "privileged" would be attending and the rest of the children
> would be left out in the cold. With a public school system, we at least
> have a system that tries to make sure everyone has an opportunity to get a
> leg up in life.
>
> You want a better system - GET INVOLVED! A lot of noise and complaining does
> not change anything. The majority of issues in public schools as well as
> private is that the parents leave the children at the front door of the
> school and say "your problem, you fix it". These are YOUR kids - you "fix
> it"! and stop relying on everyone else to.
>
>
>
> J :]
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
> >Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:43:11 -0800
> >
> >Yes they do and it makes me wonder one more time what does certification
> >mean for the student actually learning. A person can be certified to teach
> >and then be put into a class wherein they know nothing about the subject.
> >If
> >however a teacher is very knowledgeable about the subject, is excited about
> >it wouldn't they be better for the position? I know these questions are put
> >to educators and their answer is to make sure that those who are
> >'uncertified' carry some stigma for not doing the paper work demanded. But,
> >the real test is how well the students know the subject and that is rarely
> >tested. The students at Logos and other private schools do very well on the
> >tests to get them into college and a good many of the public ones do not. I
> >know that there are many reasons for that but I am not convinced that a
> >teacher being certified is an absolute for imparting knowledge.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> >To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:08 AM
> >Subject: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
> >
> >
> >I won't argue with most of your points, but for the teachers not being
> >certified or trained in education the students at Logos seam to do
> >remarkably well.
> >
> >Roger
> >-----Original message-----
> >From: "J Ford" privatejf32 at hotmail.com
> >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:20:35 -0800
> >To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: [Spam] Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> >
> > > I am NOT after the people of the Christ Church membership to quit the
> > > church, leave town or even change their beliefs. What I AM after is for
> >the
> > > "leadership" of said organization to fess up, be REAL men and tell the
> >truth
> > > about their doings and admit to their mistakes.
> > >
> > > Wilson is NOT trained as a pastor much less as a pyschologist. Yet, he
> > > seems to think he is fit to "counsel" the likes of Sitler and Jamin who
> >are
> > > serial pedophiles. HE HAS NO BACKGROUND that would allow him to certify
> >the
> > > "safety" of these creeps being in the midst of the children of Christ
> > > Church. Yet HE claimed in the 31 Jan 2007 "open forum" that that is
> >exactly
> > > what he is doing.
> > >
> > > Likewise, the "teachers" of Logos and of NSA ARE NOT CERTIFIED or even,
> >in
> > > most cases, trained in the educational field. And yet they are teaching
> >in
> > > both "educational institutions."
> > >
> > > The financial and ethical goings on with the "leadership" in that church
> >are
> > > what I object to. And it is the "leadership" of Christ Church who
> >should
> > > and will, ultimately, be held responsible for any actions or reactions
> >taken
> > > towards or against Christ Church.
> > >
> > > I would hope the membership of the "church" would at least take an
> >honest
> > > look at what is happening in, for, with Christ Church.
> > >
> > >
> > > J :]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> > > >To: debismith at moscow.com, deco at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> > > >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:51:24 -0800
> > > >
> > > >Wayne,
> > > >
> > > >I don't doubt that you and others on the site have certain drive
> >against
> > > >the church and Dougs' wrongdoings. I won't condone those. I won't also
> >tell
> > > >you to shut up about the church, for that is your free will. I also
> > > >understand that the church involved might not suit most standards,
> >myself
> > > >being one. There has been much news that we have all heard about
> >involving
> > > >this church.
> > > >
> > > >I also don't think they are the anti christ. As well as I don't think
> >you
> > > >do either. I would assume most here understand that you, J, and others
> > > >don't want Doug to die or such, rather get you information out about
> >what
> > > >you disagree with.
> > > >
> > > >I believe that ALL reliogions have their bad apples. I'm catholic and I
> > > >couldn't even begin to defend some of our priests. Just as any
> >reliogion.
> > > >And I'll give it to you, Doug and the CC are very devoted to their
> >beliefs,
> > > >which they are entitled to.
> > > >
> > > >Trying to beat the answers into us non CC hating group is not the
> >answer.
> > > >Trying to get your point across and pushing the rest aside will do
> >little
> > > >for your cause. If you feel it is your obligation to infome us non
> > > >believers of your beliefs, I would think you would do so in a
> >informative
> > > >way, not a blah blah blah manter.
> > > >
> > > >The more and more you push the more vision members leave and the more
> >your
> > > >point loses intrest.
> > > >
> > > >Facts remain: CC has not been prosicuted. They have had many question
> > > >marks. But most of the church are law abiding citizens, as well as they
> > > >should. Until that changes I choose not to carry into this agenda, as
> >well
> > > >as I hope that you would choose to respect those that have numerously
> > > >attempted to take your beleifs/agenda and take them to your site.
> > > >
> > > >Matt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>From: <debismith at moscow.com>
> > > >>To: <deco at moscow.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> > > >>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:23:39 GMT
> > > >>
> > > >>Thank you, Wayne. That is exactly the case!
> > > >>Debi R-S
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > Debbie writes:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
> > > >> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one
> >to
> > > >>its
> > > >> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Some people on this forum see some of the actions of Christ Church
> >as
> >a
> > > >> > Moscow issues: zoning, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racism,
> >sexism,
> > > >> > homophobia, theocracy, alleged evading of capital gains taxes,
> > > >> > misleading or lying at public hearings, effects of on recruitment
> >both
> > > >> > academic and athletic at the UI, organizational dishonesty, and
> > > >>cultism.
> > > >> > Some people on this forum also see it as a county-wide forum, not
> >just
> > > >> > the exclusive domain of certain Moscow users.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Some older people on this forum, whose opinion apparently really
> > > >>doesn't
> > > >> > count, still remember learning about "Eternal vigilance is the
> >price
> >of
> > > >> > liberty." Some old people on the forum see those that ignore this
> >bit
> > > >> > of Jeffersonian wisdom as enablers. For these ignorers/enablers,
> >if
> > > >>the
> > > >> > Sitler and Wight sexual predator cases, the ways they were handled,
> >and
> > > >> > their nuances and ramifications for the community did not act as a
> > > >> > wake-up call, then probably nothing will.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Some old people have not only read about, but have observed
> >firsthand
> > > >> > the effects of cultism on individuals and communities in other
> >places,
> > > >> > hence are more concerned. Unlike Misters Decker, Becker, et al,
> >some
> > > >> > people believe that the some of the outré belief-inspired actions
> >of
> > > >> > the cult have damaged and continue to damage the community. Some
> >are
> > > >> > concerned about the very active recruitment to the community of
> >others
> > > >> > by Christ Church who share their outré beliefs and would
> >perpetuate
> > > >> > the damaging actions by Christ Church which are promulgated by such
> > > >> > beliefs.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > For example, a letter to the Daily News detailing the cruel and
> >harmful
> > > >> > effects on their child by Douglas Wilson's direct and indirect
> >actions
> > > >> > with respect to gays is a chilling reminder of the effects of
> > > >> > homophobia. [I can repost this letter should some of you be
> >unfamiliar
> > > >> > with it.] Some people find these kinds of discriminatory/hate
> >driven
> > > >> > actions disturbing, wish to live in a community where this kind of
> > > >> > discrimination is greatly diminished, and therefore wish to promote
> >a
> > > >> > community discussion on this and related issues. The same can said
> >be
> > > >> > for the issues raised by the recent reposting of the Logos School's
> > > >> > complete original announcement of the banning of women from serving
> >on
> > > >> > the school's board of directors. The same can be said of Wilson's
> > > >> > delusional views on antebellum slavery.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Wilson has a complete right to express and to argue for his views,
> > > >> > however badly they reflect on the community in the outside world.
> >What
> > > >> > would reflect even worse for Moscow, in my opinion, is if such
> >views
> > > >> > were not rigorously and openly opposed.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Some people do not think it proper to discuss others' religious
> > > >>beliefs.
> > > >> > The fact is that strongly held religious beliefs prompt actions
> >which
> > > >> > have community impact, sometimes these impacts are toxic and
> >harmful
> >to
> > > >> > the general community health, welfare, and pursuit of happiness.
> >To
> > > >> > these people who think religious discussions are not proper, I urge
> >you
> > > >> > to read about the motives of the first European colonists in our
> > > >> > country, and whose European experiences gave birth to our
> >Constitution.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Debbie further writes:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > "Your Anti-Christ Church rhetoric and hate has suffocated an
> >otherwise
> > > >> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum."
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Perhaps I am too old to see it otherwise, but Vision 2020 is still
> >a
> > > >> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum. There have been
> >many
> > > >> > local issues discussed. I know for a fact that some of the
> >opinions
> > > >> > offered here have influenced officials of both city and county
> > > >> > government as well as some other organizations.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > There is no doubt a lot of writing about Christ Church and related
> > > >> > issues on V 2020 for reasons given above. There are also a lot of
> > > >> > writings about things that are not purely city issues; some of
> >these
> > > >> > issues are national and global in size, but still in the long run
> >the
> > > >> > subjects of these issues will affect Moscow.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Repeating what Debbie wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
> > > >> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one
> >to
> > > >>its
> > > >> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I hope that even critics of those that write about Christ Church
> >will
> > > >> > find the phrase "your OWN" offensive. Is there something that we
> >do
> > > >>not
> > > >> > know? Are there some individuals who "own" Vision 2020, and
> >therefore
> > > >> > have the right to tell those of us who are not among the "owners"
> >what
> > > >> > the "real" Moscow issues are, and consequently what to write about?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > As has been mentioned many times before, once an unmoderated public
> > > >> > forum has been opened, only the very naive would expect it to be
> > > >> > confined topic-wise or rhetoric-wise. Public discourse bears
> >fruit,
> >in
> > > >> > part, because of this wide diversity. As a member of a number of
> > > >> > forums, I find that Vision 2020 is superior in at least two ways:
> >It
> > > >> > has very little problems with spam, and it has encouraged a great
> > > >> > diversity of opinions on issues and of styles of communication,
> >some
> >of
> > > >> > which have promoted constructive change in the community.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > With respect to the diversity of topics and rhetoric, some people
> >are
> > > >> > not comfortable with this degree of freedom of expression. For
> >such
> > > >> > people, the one or two seconds it takes to use the delete key
> >remains
> >a
> > > >> > reasonable option and does not deter the rest of us from reading
> >(or
> > > >> > not) what others freely choose to post. For others that are
> > > >>exasperated
> > > >> > by or otherwise unable to handle the fruits of freedom of
> >expression,
> > > >> > there are ways of blocking a particular poster. I have only
> >blocked
> > > >>one
> > > >> > person. It is not that I wish to exclude his opinions, but I am
> >tired
> > > >> > of getting his offline poison pen notes. Blocking him provides an
> > > >> > option for now to pursuing criminal complaints and/or civil
> >actions.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > If it is permitted, I'll tell you what bothers me about certain
> >posts:
> > > >> > Some posters do not believe that it necessary to support with
> > > >> > information and argument the opinions they express. Of course they
> >are
> > > >> > free to do this, but it does not reflect well on themselves nor the
> > > >> > positions they espouse.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Wayne A. Fox
> > > >> > 1009 Karen Lane
> > > >> > PO Box 9421
> > > >> > Moscow, ID 83843
> > > >> >
> > > >> > (208) 882-7975
> > > >> > waf at moscow.com
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > From: "Debbie Gray" <graylex at yahoo.com>
> > > >> > To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>
> > > >> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:11 PM
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Exactly. Christ Church isn't alone it its
> > > >> > > interpretations of the bible. I grew up in a
> > > >> > > fundamentalist bible-thumping born-again household and
> > > >> > > heard this same stuff. I understand that people oppose
> > > >> > > these ideas and find them harmful. I don't understand
> > > >> > > the hate focused on one group. I don't agree with most
> > > >> > > of the things they teach but I don't agree with the
> > > >> > > catholics (also anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc etc), the
> > > >> > > LDS Church (also wanting to keep women in their
> > > >> > > 'traditional role'); the Lutherans, the Methodists and
> > > >> > > any other flavor of "christian" belief. Where is the
> > > >> > > outcry that women can't be Elders in the LDS Church?
> > > >> > > Where's our female pope? Look at those Catholic
> > > >> > > priests molesting children left and right!
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN
> > > >> > > anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever
> > > >> > > LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of
> > > >> > > discussing Moscow issues. Your Anti-Christ Church
> > > >> > > rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful,
> > > >> > > infornative, interesting, lively forum. Does anyone
> > > >> > > remember PRE-Tom Hansen/Jackie Woolf, etc? I do!!!
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Debbie Gray
> > > >> > > p.s. Tom, I am at home on my home computer (purchased
> > > >> > > with wages from the UI), do you want my home address?
> > > >> > > Phone #? I hope you like my IP address... i like how
> > > >> > > the numbers make such a random pattern. Do i need to
> > > >> > > give a permission slip from my spouse or kids that I
> > > >> > > am not misusing my personal time?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --- kerry becker <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ---------------------------------
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The irony is that this stuff happens in many churches.
> > > >> > > You know what kind of heyday we could have if we had
> > > >> > > a mole like J Ford in the mormon church? Think about
> > > >> > > it. Now there's some good stuff. Maybe we could
> > > >> > > start an "Outing Churches in Moscow" blog? : )
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > But seriously, there really ISNT a fine line between
> > > >> > > "dialogue" and "obsession." It's clear as day which
> > > >> > > is which and I believe that's what most are trying to
> > > >> > > eliminate in these postings.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Reminds me of a quote;
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > "Great minds talk about great ideas; average minds
> > > >> > > talk about average ideas; small minds talk about other
> > > >> > > people.--Anonymous
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > >
> > >>_________________________________________________________________________>
> > > >> ___________
> > > >> > > Get your own web address.
> > > >> > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> > > >> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
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> > > >> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > >> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > =========================> =========================> =====
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>---------------------------------------------
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> > > >> http://www.fsr.com/
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
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