[Vision2020] who killed the electric car?

Craine Kit kcraine at verizon.net
Tue Feb 6 00:13:55 PST 2007


Once upon a time, about 15 years ago or so, I read an article from  
Mechanic's Illustrated (I think) about an "electric" car. An inventor  
converted a lawn mower motor into a generator. He used that to power  
four electric motors. Each motor drove one wheel of a small, light- 
weight car. He drove this car from New York to LA on about EIGHT  
gallons of gas.

The part that really stuck in my head was that he sold his marvelous  
invention to one of the big auto makers and his design was buried  
forever.

Kit Craine

On Feb 5, 2007, at 6:57 PM, g. crabtree wrote:
Why does your beloved electric car have to come off the drawing board  
of the "gas/auto industry? If the technology was economically viable  
and if a significant number of people were anxious to purchase a  
glorified slot car I would think that it would be brought about by  
other means. ("hundreds of customers" begging the companies is hardly  
a significant market.) Who is it that would not "allow" them to do  
this? If experience teaches us nothing else about corporations,  it's  
that in all but a few exceptional cases, returning value to the stock  
holders is what makes industry sing and dance. If there was any real  
money to be had with electric cars I'm sure that some capitalistic  
eager beaver would be on the dime and doing it. (with the help of  
greedy investors) Of course for some, the "paranoid fantasy" has a  
more romantic allure than the grim reality, yes?

g

P.S. Vampires working out of a little dive bar in Mexico are gearing  
up to suck a whole gaggle of North Americans blood right down to the  
last drop. "I saw it on DVD." Stock in turtlenecks is bound to go  
through the roof.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill London
To: Paul Rumelhart ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?

Yes, engineers likely could design more efficient vehicles and better  
power sources -- but will they be allowed to do so?
That is the lesson of the electric car fiasco in California.
When the gas/auto industries were able to destroy the state mandate  
for zero emission cars, they stopped their engineers from improving  
the existing electric cars, stopped their customers from buying any  
(or transferrring their leases to purchases), and destroyed all  
existing vehicles.
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Rumelhart
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?

As a programmer, I can't help but look at the issue of "shifting  
pollution somewhere else" in terms of reusable programming code.   
It's analogous to moving logic from many different functions into a  
central library of code.  If that central library of code is written  
badly, then you don't get any benefit right away and might even see  
your program slow down.  However, refactoring one function can now  
help in many different places immediately.

This is also true for the electric car.  Yes, it shifts the burden  
from efficient gasoline engines to inefficient coal-powered plants  
and inefficient electric engines and batteries.  However, replace one  
of those coal plants with a modern nuclear reactor or a solar or wind  
farm, and you've just helped the whole equation measurably with just  
one change.

We're going from a known bad in multiple places (gasoline-powered  
personal vehicles) to a known bad in a much smaller list of central  
places.  This can only help in the future.  I'm also optimistic that  
the scientists and engineers will design more efficient electric cars  
and power-containment technology as the demand increases.

Paul

Ted Moffett wrote:

All-

I'm not defending the oil/auto industry in these comments regarding  
how they have approached electric vehicles, but electric battery  
powered cars/light trucks are not realistically a large scale  
solution to US transportation needs at the current time, if they ever  
will be.

The electric car can lessen pollution in vehicle dense urban areas,  
but to a large degree would shift the pollution generated by the  
electrical generation to power the cars, somewhere else.  The US  
derives about 50% of its electricity from coal fired plants, linked  
to creating respiratory ailments and exacerbating respiratory  
disease, along with dumping dangerous mercury pollution and massive  
amounts of CO2.  If the US shifted to far more electric/battery car  
use, the electrical power demands to charge these vehicles would  
force more output from coal fired electrical generation plants, thus  
more pollution, given current coal fired plants pollution control  
technology. The US now in some areas already faces rolling blackouts  
during peak electricity use periods due to demand exceeding safe  
system capacity.

Hopefully, given that the US has the largest coal reserves of any  
nation on Earth, and the almost impossible to stop demands for  
incredible amounts of cheap (coal electricity is cheap) energy to run  
our economy and technology, future coal fired plants can reduce all  
forms of pollution, including CO2 output, via CO2 sequestration  
technology.  Then electric cars charged via coal derived energy might  
truly be "non-polluting," and not contribute to global warming.

Electric cars/trucks to be a realistic long term solution need to be  
recharged off sustainable (coal will deplete) non-polluting energy:  
solar, wind, nuclear fission (I know this suggestion will raise eye  
brows), the dream of practical nuclear fusion, etc.  There is not now  
even a fraction of the generating capacity from these sources to  
power a mostly electric nation wide fleet of cars/light trucks, that  
most consumers drive.

Of course, we hear often about fuel cell vehicles, a kind of electric  
car, that does not require charging batteries to power the cars  
motor, given that the fuel cell generates the electricity on board,  
but there are still serious problems with what fuel source can  
economically power a nationwide fleet of fuel cells vehicles.  We  
hear a lot about hydrogen to power fuel cells, or even to power an  
internal combustion engine directly, but this fuel takes a lot of  
energy to produce in the first place, like in electrolysis from  
water.  Fuel cells can run on fossil or possibly some biofuels, but  
fossil fuels will deplete, and biofuels are very questionable as a  
large scale solution to energy demands for a number of reasons.

It is easy to forget the incredible amounts of convenient portable  
inexpensive energy contained in the gasoline/diesel powering cars and  
trucks, and tempting to think that there are practical and affordable  
options to this form of energy, if if were not for the sinister  
manipulations of the oil and auto industry and the short term greed  
of Wall Street.  I don't deny they are sinister, and have manipulated  
to stop or slow the implementation of alternative energy solutions to  
the fossil fuel powered car/light truck that most people drive, or to  
block more reliance on public transport to reduce the need for most  
all to drive cars and trucks.  But there are serious technological  
and economic problems with replacing fossil fueled vehicles, given  
our current short term profit oriented economy, lifestyle and huge  
consumption of energy.

Here is an interesting and apparently well informed discussion on  
electrical energy generation and the problems with fossil fuel  
depletion and global warming.  I will offer one quote that bodes well  
for wind energy to power electric cars:

http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html

"There is no shortage of energy sources that have no or low CO2  
emissions. The potential for wind-generated electricity in the 12  
states down the spine of the United States (North Dakota to Texas,  
including Midwestern and Rocky Mountain states) is equal to two-and-a- 
half times the entire electricity generation of the United States.
Put another way, the energy potential there is roughly the same as  
the oil output of all the members of the Organization of Petroleum  
Exporting Countries (OPEC)."
-------------------
Ted Moffett

On 2/5/07, Ellen Roskovich <gussie443 at hotmail.com> wrote:
I definately recommend viewing this documentary.  I saw it downtown  
when it played here a few months back.  For some reason it, the  
documentary, seems to be getting as much attention as the electric  
car did.  Too bad.  But now that it's out on DVD maybe more people  
will see it. . . . I know I told all my friends about it after I saw  
the movie. Now I'll tell them to go get the DVD.   Glad Bill brought  
the subject up.

Ellen Roskovich

From: "Kai Eiselein, editor" <editor at lataheagle.com>
To: "Bill London" < london at moscow.com>, < vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:38:50 -0800


NPR had a segment on this last summer. as well.
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020- 
bounces at moscow.com]On Behalf Of Bill London
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:29 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?

A decade ago, California decided to get serious about smog and  
required car manufacturers to create zero-emission cars.  The auto  
makers did build electric cars for sale in that state.  Then by  
creatively undermining public support for the cars and reversing the  
state mandate, they killed the electric car.  Literally.  Even though  
hundreds of customers begged the companies to sell them an electric  
car, the auto makers refused (the cars were only leased, not sold).   
And then the leases were ended, and the cars were actually crushed  
and recycled.

Though it sounds like a paranoid fantasy, it's all there in the  
recent documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car?"  I saw it on DVD.   
It is a great summary and a strong indictment of the short-sighted  
oil/auto industry that could only see that big cars equal big profits.

GM and Ford are now suffering big time with diving stock prices and  
huge losses.  And all I can think is those dinosaurs deserve it.

For more info, and links to the DVD, etc see: http:// 
www.pluginamerica.com/
BL


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