[Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street

Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Wed Dec 5 19:17:47 PST 2007

And in the same spirit, Seasons Greetings to you, Bald Guy.

I say that confident in my encroaching hairline.  It and my eyebrow are racing to the middle of my threehead.


From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; sdredge at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:12:54 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street

Me neither and of course he doesn't deserve it. I do it 
out of the goodness of my heart and in the giving spirit of the season. Happy 
Holidays, Brain-Guy! 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  keely emerinemix 
  To: g. crabtree ; Scott Dredge ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 7:05 
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Civility is a 
  two-way street
I don't know Ted.  Never met him, wouldn't recognize him 
  if he was walking down the street in front of me.  However, I've found 
  him to be honest and insightful, and he doesn't deserve 


    From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: sdredge at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Wed, 
    5 Dec 2007 18:07:26 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Civility is a two-way 


    And there we go! Why in the world would I 
    need to devote any effort to making Mr. Muffett look silly when he does 
    such a yeoman like job all by his lonesome. His " I am Spock, resurrected" 
    spiel takes pompous to a here to fore unexplored level and his 
    claims of being on the very verge of becoming a transcendent creature of 
    pure intellect makes me wonder if he gets out of his mothers basement much. 
    (I picture brain-Guy from MST3K hollering up the stairs "Quiet Ma, I'm 
    almost ready to shed this vile carbon based vessel and become a ray of 
    environmentally friendly energy. Bring me another Twinkie and a Sprite!" ) 
    Keep pecking away on that man made global warming obsession you've got 
    going, I'm sure that Al Gore will be around any day to thank you for your 
    efforts assuming you haven't, well you know, transformed. I know I sure 
    am happy you've been on the case. My appreciation is boundless, my amusement 
    Keep on thinkin' the big thoughts 
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Scott Dredge" <sdredge at yahoo.com>
    To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 12:42 
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Civility is a two-way 
>> Ted wrote: 
>> Scott et. 
>> You must be kidding?
> Not at 
>> You write as though you think Vision2020 is some 
    sort of ghetto gang
>> scene ("street fighter?" "toe to toe?") 
    where making an ass of someone
>> dictates dominance and 
    power?  How pathetic!  The more enlightened
>> readership 
    on this list does not buy into this crude mentality.
> v2020 
    is an unmoderated list.  The more enlightened readership hits the 
> key on most of the postings including this one without 
    reading any further (I
> would hope).
>> Let Gary 
    Crabtree "make complete asses out of the both of you on this
    site," as you wrote.  I''ll just sit back and laugh!
    At this point, fine by me.
>> I am above the sort of 
    irrational nonsense that Gary Crabtree posts to
>> this list, or to 
    that community joke, "wrong-mind.us"  I don't care
>> what he 
    says, if there is no content worth responding to, I simply
    ignore it as not worth my time.  Ad hominem attacks, be my 
>> I've faced this many times before, in rather extreme 
    ways, and if Gary
>> Crabtree thinks he can rattle my cage, "bring 
    it on (God bless
>> conservative hero and professional moron George 
    W. Bush for this now
>> immortal phrase signifying the idiocy of 
    cowboy macho
>> overconfidence)."
> Perfect!  I 
    hope we don't ever again need to read from you or anyone else
> about 
    how unethical Gary was for posting a private email considering you
    don't care what he posts.  But since this cardinal sin is such a hot 
> issue that really gets under your craw, I guess we'll just 
    have to wait and
> see who gets blamed for what wrongdoing the next 
    time HeirDoug or
> (anyone else for that matter) just 'cuts & 
    pastes" from the v2020 archives.
>> I am interested in 
    fact based logical discourse on important issues,
>> in the Truth, 
    not personal ego battles, or moral superiority
>> competitions 
    between morally faulted human beings (as we all are!).
>> Anyone 
    following my responses to ridiculous irrational attacks on
    Vision2020, aimed my way, should realize this.
> Great!  
    Start a new thread with a new subject line on some new topic
> more 
    important than this one.
>> The Temple of Reason is where 
    I dwell on this list.  And without
>> radical means of 
    persuasion, I will not falter from this position.
> Good to 
>> Come on Gary, make an ass of me!  I'll 
    relish ignoring your every
>> attempt, as I continue to post on 
    more important issues, like
>> anthropogenic climate change.  
    I know how devoted you are to
>> discovering the truth on this 
    issue, being someone focused on the
>> objective pursuit of 
    knowledge... Well, we can hope!
> Good to hear a couple 
    paragraphs above that you'll be ignoring Gary.
>> Ted 
> Scott Dredge
> On 12/3/07, Scott 
    Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com> 
>> Ted / Joe,
>> FWIW, I'm speaking for 
    Gary because I truly do not want to see him
> make complete asses 
    out of the both of you on this site on this issue and
> I'm 
    trying to explain this in a way that I *thought* would make 
> to both of you.  Gary's not going to follow your 
    idea of proper list
> server etiquette.  He doesn't give a 
    good God Damn if anyone thinks his
> posting of a private email 
    was unethical.  He posted a private email to
> let everyone 
    know he received it and my guess is that he would prefer
> to 
    receive no more emails like it (or maybe he would like to 
> them and so he can post them publicly again).  So 
    don't send any to him.
>> Gary can waste his time 
    responding on this but he's going to make
> both of you look just 
    plain bad.  If you want to go toe to toe with Gary,
> be my 
    guest.  Just be aware that Gary is a street fighter and he's 
> going to play by whatever rules you think he should play by 
> ultimately he's going to bait both of you into looking very 
    foolish.  He's
> good at it.  Beyond that, he's not 
    emotionally charged by this issue like
> you and Joe are which is 
    what started this whole foolish nonsense to
> begin with.  
    He's not the one keeping this thing alive, the two of your
> are 
    along with a little help from HeirDoug posing in drag.  If you 
> this issue to go away, then drop it.  I've got 
    nothing more to say on
> it so I'll just stand back, watch the 
    carnage that Gary dishes out, and
> just shake my 
>> Take it away Gary, I'm sure this is going to 
    be child's play for you
> but I've done my best to warn both of 
>> -Scott
>> ----- 
    Original Message ----
>> From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
>> To: Scott Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com>; Joe 
> <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
    Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 11:34:29 PM
>> Subject: [Vision2020] 
    Civility is a two-way street
>> Scott et. 
>> You write as though you are Gary Crabtree's 
    conscience in this
> matter,
>> when you write that 
    "He's more than happy to move forward."  Let Gary
>> speak for 
    himself.  Why are you speaking for him?
>> Also, 
    Joe's recent response to Gary in this thread was correct in
    pointing out that the assumption that Gary might have posted the
    recent re-posting of Joe's private e-mail, was not based on
    "non-existent evidence," as Gary claimed.  The fact Gary 
>> posted this private message, and has disputed with 
    Joe many times on
>> Vision2020, is evidence to suggest Gary might 
    engage in this conduct
>> again, to undermine Joe's recent post 
    with this subject heading,
>> responding to Atwood's Daily News 
>> Also, your argument immediately below, 
    attempting to remove any
>> responsibility for objectionable list 
    serve conduct on the part of
>> Gary for posting of a private 
    e-mail, is questionable.  It is
> accepted
>> by 
    almost all on this list serve that private e-mail not be posted 
>> the list.  If this was happening with regularity, it 
    would certainly
>> undermine the health of this list, based in part 
    on trust between
>> people for respect for their privacy.  I 
    do not know all the details
>> of the case with Wilson and Morin 
    you refer to, but I doubt the two
>> examples are precisely 
    analogous.  I have received insulting private
>> e-mails from 
    Vision2020 list members (along with a much larger
>> percentage of 
    positive private responses!), but I have 
> responded
>> by posting these insulting private 
>> Scott wrote:
    Sending Gary an insulting email was your fault.  You 
>> Nothing more needs to be said.  Trying to pin 
    any blame on Gary for
>> forwarding it v2020 is as weak to me as 
    Doug Wilson's complaint
>> against Terry Morin for posting 
    supposedly secret documents for the
>> whole world to see Doug as a 
    rotten, lying skunk.
>> ------------------
>> Vision2020 
    Post: Ted Moffett
>> On 12/2/07, Scott 
    Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com> 
>> > Joe,
>> >
>> > When this 
    brouhaha first came to light, I recall you 
> and
>>  Gary Crabtree accepting the 
    apology and saying something to effect
> of
    "let's move on".  Gary isn't the one being petty about this and 
> sure
>>  he'd like nothing better than to 
    move on to scoring more debate
> points
>>  on 
    v2020 which is something he does very well being the 
> debater
>>  that he is.
>> > Sending Gary an insulting email was your fault.  
    You apologized.
>>  Nothing more needs to be said.  
    Trying to pin any blame on Gary for
>>  forwarding it v2020 is 
    as weak to me as Doug Wilson's complaint
> against 
>>  Morin for posting supposedly secret documents for 
    the whole world to
>>  see Doug as a rotten, lying 
>> >
>> > There's not much you can do about 
    Dale or HeirDoug reposting it
> again
>>  and 
    again.  They don't quite understand the whole "I'm sorry, I 
> a
>>  mistake, I'll try not to make the same 
    one again" scenario.  What
> else
>>  would 
    you expect from disciples of a rogue pastor who makes 
> sorts
>>  of ludicrous statements and never 
    refutes them because in his own
> mind
>>  it's a 
    weakness to admit to any mistake (no matter how painfully
>> >
>> > My advice is that when Heirdoug 
    plays this card again - and you
> know
>>  he will 
    because he's not very creative - leave Gary out of the 
>>  He's more than happy to move forward.
>> > -Scott
>> >
>> > ----- 
    Original Message ----
>> > From: Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net>
    > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
    > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 8:46:50 PM
>> > Subject: Re: 
    [Vision2020] Civility is a 2-way street.
>> >
>> > Ted writes: "...given Gary Crabtree was the 
>> > disclosed source of the original posting of this 
    private e-mail, in
>> > violation of the 'rule' that private 
    messages not be posted to
>> > Vision2020, it is reasonable to 
    assume he might engage in the same
>> >  conduct again, 
>> >
>> > Gary writes: "Making assumptions 
    based on nonexistent evidence is
>> >  
>> > ill advised."
>> >
>> > 
    Your NAME was on the the posted letter. How is that a lack 
>>  evidence?
>> >
>> > For the 
    record, I don't think you posted the recent letter. But 
>>  did
>> >  post the
>> > 
    initial PRIVATE letter -- precisely so your Kirk friends 
>>  re-post
>> >  it over
    > and over and over again. So it isn't exactly as if you are 
>> >  blame!
>> >
>> > I 
    await your insults, fallacies, and evasions. If nothing 
> they
>> >  provide a
>> > 
    source of amusement to the other readers.
>> >
>> > 
    -- Joe Campbell
>> >
> List 
    services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the 
    communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com

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