[Vision2020] and speaking of religion in public places

[Donovan Arnold]

Joe,
   
  You cannot take the peanuts out of peanut butter and still call it peanut butter. The Constitution is what it is. But it is a meaningless piece of paper without the backing of some divine reference in its creation. Everything must have a foundation in something higher than it. Your ownership of your house is backed by a paper owned by the city, backed by the county, who is backed by the state, who is backed by the federal government, which are backed by the Constitution, which is backed by, what? Well, the ruler the of the Universe. It has to be, otherwise it is just a piece of paper. 
   
  The Declaration of Independence, makes very clear that the Constitution is established on clear belief in a God, and based on the principles of the rights written by men that believed in Christianity. Christian belief was the only concept of God they believed in. 
   
  Not writing the name Christ in the document does not mean they excluded that which they believed He represented in government, respecting your fellow humans, doing unto your neighbors which you wish done unto you. 
   
  The Truth is in the Constitution, and God is the Truth. I see the Truth, don't you?
   
  Best,
   
  Donovan

Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
  Dear Donovan,

You are confusing INFLUENCE with ESSENSE. No doubt Christianity influenced the founding fathers. That does not mean that Christianity is essential to the basic principles of the Constitution. 

Note that the terms ‘Christianity’ and ‘Christian’ do not appear in the Constitution. 

I can agree with you that only God may grant the rights afforded to men, although saying this is no different to me than saying that men have rights since God is the cause of everything (cf. Jefferson and Franklin). That this God is the ‘Christian God’ suggests that before Christianity there were no rights, which makes a complete mystery out of what Jesus was up to.

Anyone who needs to qualify God by putting the term ‘Christian’ in front does not really understand God, IMHO. Remember that I'm a Christian when you think about what this might mean.

Best, Joe

------------------------------ 

Message: 4 
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Donovan Arnold 
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] and speaking of religion in public places 
To: nickgier at adelphia.net, Paul Rumelhart 
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Message-ID: <233656.60259.qm at web38104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 

Nick Gier and his cronies just don't understand what Sali is saying. 

The principles of our Constitution are etched from the rock of Christianity. 
You cannot remove the rock without removing its authority. The Constitution is 
meaningless if it doesn't have Christianity as a bases of its authority, derived 
only because of Christianity. 

Who says all men are equal? Who says you have unalienable rights? Who says you 
have the right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from unfair 
trial? 

Those rights are not granted to men by men, they are granted to men by God, 
the Christian God. And that is what gives the US Constitution its authority, its 
greatness, and truthfulness. Otherwise, the Constitution was written, and the 
rights granted us within, are not real rights, or moral principles of God's 
justice, but in fact, just something a bunch fat balding rich guys wearing white 
wigs came up with on a hot sweaty day in July at the turn of the 18th century 
hiding from the British authorities. 

I believe certain rights are given to us by God, and that many of those rights 
are engraved into the Constitution. If you don't believe this too, then the only 
thing giving the Constitution, and your rights are men, men who decide 
arbitrarily what rights you have and don't have at any time or place. It makes 
the Constitution a document that is enforceable only by the threat of a gun and 
the will of the powerful men that yield it. 

Best, 

Donovan


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