[Vision2020] Say What?

[heirdoug at netscape.net]

Let me first address your "imperative of blessing".

Keely, When God told Adam and Eve to eat of every tree in the garden 
but not to eat the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was this an 
imperative of blessing or a command to follow?

As to God's desire being expressed. Did God want more children or fewer 
children from Adam and Eve? From Abraham and Sarah? From Jacob or 
David? What is God's desire at the beginning of the New Testament 
period? What is God's desire today?

You say that " I believe the world has expanded pretty completely" is 
this what God revealed to you directly or indirectly or did you just 
look around one day and declare "we don't need any more children?" How 
many people can the world hold? 6 billion? 10 billion? 20 billion or 50 
billion? What is the consensuses of the Institute for Biblical 
Equality?



How can you say that the imperative of blessing hardly is relevant to 
me having 8 little ones? Did the Holy Spirit tell you this last night 
on the plane?



I guess we can start with these questions and I'm sure your responses 
will generate more.



Doug





-----Original Message-----

From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>

To: heirdoug at netscape.net; thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com; 
vpschwaller at gmail.com; joekc at adelphia.net

Cc: idahotom at hotmail.com; tomh at uidaho.edu

Sent: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 2:57 pm

Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?



I'm afraid I find Doug Farris' arguments below to be mistaken on two 
fronts.



As far as "be fruitful and multiply," I believe the world has expanded 
pretty completely from Adam and Eve, who were both given that mandate.  
Further, most scholars and students of Scripture understand that an 
"imperative of blessing" is not a command to do the action described, 
but, as a blessing, expresses the desire of the Blessor.  If I say to 
Doug Farris, "be well and live long," I don't hunt him down to see if 
he's done what I said when he ends up sick, nor do I show up at his 
funeral to comment on how his longevity reflected obedience to my 
command.  It's a blessing, not the issuance of orders.



So yeah -- Adam and Eve were told to multiply, and they did.  That 
imperative of blessing hardly is relevant to Farris' having eight 
children.  What is relevant is that Farris believes that his wife's 
fecundity is striking a blow against what he insensitively calls 
"Mohammedism" (I presume that would be the faith of "Mohammedens"), it 
does no such thing -- except possibly contribute to hostilities between 
Muslims and Christians by peppering them with more children raised in 
culturally tone-deaf households.  The "full quiver" of many children as 
"arrows" in the fight against perceived Godlessness is a fallacy; the 
Kingdom of God is not dependent on the fruit of my womb, his loins, or 
numerous test tubes in the lab.  Further, the blessing of a full quiver 
is noted in the context of both the love and joy children bring to 
those who choose to have them, as well as -- and this is significant -- 
the blessing of having that many more hands to work at scratching out a 
living in the post-Fall world of the Old Testament, where children were 
a necessity because of the work they did and the security they provided 
parents.



Now I'm sure that Doug will leap on this and suggest that I value my 
sons solely because of their ability to produce labor to shore up our 
family's existence.  But while my eldest DID pick me up today at the 
airport, his value to me and to his dad and brother is that he is a 
uniquely wonderful, gifted, joy-bringing young man just because he 
exists -- which is what God intended children to be.  I honor couples 
who choose to not have kids, I grieve with those who cannot, and I 
assume that couples who have lots of kids know more about their needs 
and desires and resources than I do.  One thing I won't do, however, is 
make fun of childless couples, non-Christians, or even -- gasp! -- 
devout believers I know who choose not to marry or, when they do, 
choose not to have children.  I think it wouldn't be asking too much to 
suggest that Farris consider not making fun of them, either.



keely















> To: thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com; vpschwaller at gmail.com; 
joekc at adelphia.net

> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:32:31 -0400

> From: heirdoug at netscape.net

> CC: idahotom at hotmail.com; tomh at uidaho.edu

> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?

>

> Tom-Tom,

>

> Having not had any children of your own I can see why you may not

> understand, comprehend or even get the gist of what I said earlier. 
You

> 'choose' to not have children by marrying late in life or what ever

> your reason was. I 'choose' to have children as many as God allows me

> to have. These two world views are at opposite ends of the spectrum. 
I

> choose to submit to God, 'be fruitful, multiply and subdue the earth'

> you choose to ignore God's command. That would be the 'gist' of my

> first sentence.

>

> The second sentence in the quote you try to make fun of is, in 
context,

> a probability rather than an absolute. I was told by a Mohammadean 
that

> they do not have to fight to win the religious war they just have to

> have more babies than the Christians and the war will be won. This 
was

> said to me over 30 years ago. I took his words to heart and now 8

> children later, I have an opportunity to over come his dire 
prediction.

> To think that his motive was world domination back then. The more

> things change the more they stay the same.

>

> I come to find out that the Mohammadeans are not having the numbers 
of

> children that you would think. They come to the west and only end up

> having to 2 or 3 that the west is having. It is not the same for 
other

> countries. Japan is in a death spiral. There are 17 or 18 other

> European nations who depend on importing Muslims in order to function.

>

> Here are a couple of quotes from Mark Steyn's America Alone, you can

> put on the Say What? listing.

>

>

>

> "In their bizarre prioritization of "a woman's right to choose,"

> feminists have helped ensure that European women will end their days 
in

> a culture that doesn't accord women the right to choose anything.

> Non-Muslim females in heavily Muslims neighborhoods in France now 
wear

> head scarves while out on the streets." --

>

> "The EU figures it needs another fifty million immigrants in the next

> few years just to maintain a big enough working population to fund 
the

> lavish social programs its vast retired army of baby boomers expects 
to

> enjoy. And the sonly available sources of immigrants are North Africa

> and the Middle-East. Whether these are the chaps to keep Pierre and

> Gerhard in the style to which they've become accustomed is highly

> doubtful: according to some Scandinavian statistics, 40 percent of

> those on welfare are immigrants. Elsewhere, the picture is similar:

> welfare regimes work a lot better for their Islamist beneficiaries 
than

> for native Continental ones. "--

>

> "What's the Muslim population of Rotterdam? Forty percent. What's the

> most popular boy's name in Belgium? Mohammed. In Amsterdam? Mohammed.

> In Malmo, Sweden? Mohammed. By 2005, it was the fifth most popular

> boy's name in the United Kingdom." --

>

>

>

> Now Tom, If you wish to quote me again please add these from Mark 
Steyn

> to make it complete.

>

> Thanks for giving me an opportunity to express my opinion here on you

> personal blog, Vision 2020.

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

>

> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>

>

> To: heirdoug at netscape.net; vision2020 at moscow.com;

> vpschwaller at gmail.com; joekc at adelphia.net

>

> Sent: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 5:35 am

>

> Subject: Say What?

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> "As more and more heathens 'choose' to not have children the number 
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> souls will increase. If the number of Christian births out number the

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> of Islamic births the battle will be over in 3 or 4 generations."

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> - Doug "No-Clue" Farris (March 10, 2007)

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> Seeya round town, Moscow.

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> Tom Hansen

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> Moscow, Idaho

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