[Vision2020] Trinity Fest Protest.

[heirdoug at netscape.net]

Andreas,

Thanks for letting me know a little bit about what you think. Obviously 
the first part of your comments were a little more coherent than the 
latter part but I will try to piece together the fragments and see if I 
get your drift. You seem to have had a good look-see into the fruit of 
the trinitarian life that most of us at Christ Church enjoy daily and 
that many of  those outside feel a need to point fingers at and gasp. I 
wish you could get to know some of us better before making any further 
judgments about us or our leaders.

You raise the question about the accountability of Pastor Wilson. Let 
me assure you that if the elders or the congregation ever had doubts as 
to his fitness he would be held to the highest standard of discipline 
and accountability. It would take only two or three witnesses of any 
indiscretions on his part to bring valid charges.

You have, it seems, read a little bit beyond the boundaries of most 
folks here on the Vis. You have read probably more than I. I am not a 
very good reader when it comes to all sorts of stuff. But when I read 
something it tends to stick.

Have you ever sat down and talked to anyone, face to face, about some 
of your claims? Have you ever met Chris Washington? He is one of those 
studying to be a pastor under the teaching of Pastor Wilson. I think 
some of the stereotypes that you have put forward in the latter of your 
previous post might be laid to rest rather quickly.

I would be happy to host a visit. I will do the cooking. I'm sure Chris 
will bring the cigars and you can bring your objections. You can meet 
my wife and ask her if she feels subservient and downtrodden and then 
you can visit with Chris' wife and make your judgment after the meal.

I would not try to "convert" you or make you feel uncomfortable, unless 
you have an aversion to eating with 8 children at the same table. I 
know that may seem a little overwhelming at times. The older ones are 
very articulate and bright and I doubt that I will get a chance to get 
a word in edgewise. Sometimes trying to talk around here is sort of 
like trying to thread a sewing machine while it's running. Patrick my 
youngest, will become your best friend and you can entertain him by 
playing his new favorite game, catch.

You would be welcome any time just name it.

Again thanks for not "going Visual" on me, but rather giving some 
honest concerns.



lemeno, Doug!



PS. Gary you and yours would be welcome as well. Shoot every one here 
would be welcome. I would just have to find a place larger to seat 
every one. Just name the time and the place.



"Trinity Fest - Once a year defibrillator for the 'Heart of the Arts'"











-----Original Message-----

From: Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com>

To: heirdoug at netscape.net <heirdoug at netscape.net>

Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com; jampot at roadrunner.com

Sent: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 9:21 pm

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Fest Protest.





















> That just about sums up what God haters like Andreas and Nick really

> fear.

>

> It's the freedom.



Doug --



Actually, spent some time ruminating today, and produced exactly that

answer. In your theology, one of the things I find objectionable (and

I find many things about it objectionable), is, in fact, the freedom.

Or, at the very least, it is the juxtaposition of absolute liberty

with absolute privation.



The thing that strikes me most, when reading Wilson in particular, is

that he does not particularly fit the model of a theocrat; that is, he

is not grim, humorless, and dour (or, at least, he is not generally

so; I'll discuss that later). He's a quick read, and once you've

mastered the somewhat specialized vocabulary he uses, and not an

unpleasant. He actively promotes drinking, humor, the arts -- things

which other Christians, especially other *Calvinists*, explicitly

reject. You also won't find pious, whitebread "Christianized" versions

of secular entertainments: last year, I was treated to a passable

cover of "Sweet Home Alabama" sung by the man himself.



He is not an ascetic, and explicitly denounces asceticism (of any

sort) as being "Gnostic." You will find no flagellants in his

congregation, and no teetotalers. I spent some time wandering around

Trinity Fest this year. It looked fun, especially when one compares it

to Gary North's economic apocalypse seminars or Joe Morecraft's fusty,

legalistic lecturing (you will find nothing more interesting on his

church calendar than a "World History Class," and sermons on "History

of the Reformation").



You may want to stop reading here, as it is the last positive thing I

will be saying about DW for some time.



Those freedoms are reserved only for the elect, and then only from the

upper classes of the elect. Some pretense is made at there being

reciprocal responsibilities between a man and his wife; a master and

his slave; a pastor and his church. Those responsibilities boil down,

effectively, to these two tenets: do not make their burden of your

lessers harder than it must be; keep them firmly in their place. Women

are responsible for cleaning, obedience, sex on demand; men, as their

reciprocal responsibility, must give orders and compliments. A slave

must work as hard as he can for his master; his master must merely

refrain from whipping him.



There are differences in opinion over egalitarianism, both here and

elsewhere. My position is clear: I am an egalitarian, sexual and

otherwise. I don't mean to start that argument here. However, even by

the standard that people of different station should have different

rights and responsibilities, his failure to promote standards that are

even remotely reciprocal is truly remarkable. In ethical anarchy

Wilson proposes for those whose ordination is to lead, those who are

subject have absolute duties to other mortals, and those that are

ordained to be leaders are answerable only to God, who is expected,

one suspects, to manage the affairs of the Church by directly smiting

those leaders who stray.



I'm reminded of something Chris Witmer posted some time ago:



"If it was me, I probably wouldn't give them the time of day. If you

ask me (sorry, I know nobody asked me), it sounds like someone has

trouble distinguishing between presbyterianism (where the congregation

chooses their elders and then submits to them) and modern American

baptistic congregationalism (where the leaders have to keep on

answering to the electorate)."



To me, some of the charges coming from the Reformed side of Doug's

critics -- hyperconservatives even amongst evangelical Christians --

sound esoteric. Sacerdotalism. Papism. Pastoral tyranny. Covering over

the criminal mistakes of other pastors (like R.C. Sproul's tax fraud.)

I haven't mentioned them because I'm only distantly interested in

issues of church governance. But they are merely the flip side of my

objections to his theology, from the liberal side: he believes that

the powerful -- men, slaveholders, whites -- are utterly

unaccountable, that they are ordained to be unaccountable, and that

the Enlightenment (and Civil War) somehow forced Satanic

accountability into places, like the marital home, the government, and

the Church, where it should never have gone.



Well, Doug, we in the West had 1200 years of misery, death, ignorance

and tyranny under unaccountable leaders, unaccountable husbands, and

unaccountable white men with beards. We're sick of it now, thanks.



-- ACS












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