[Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures

Sat Apr 28 22:34:27 PDT 2007

Here's the thing, Paul.  I do know the guy, and you're not likely to meet too many people with more integrity than Sunil.  I've admired your conciliatory and irenic tone in the past, but there's nothing "fair enough" about anything Donovan has said in this or any other exchange.   I'm not qualified to judge what he does deserve, but one thing Donovan doesn't deserve is the benefit of the doubt, and I would suggest that Sunil has more than proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he is a fine and decent man who loves his country.keelyDate: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:15:30 -0700From: godshatter at yahoo.comTo: vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures

Fair enough. 

I'd think that the fact that he is doing what he can to change what he
doesn't like is evidence enough that he appreciates this country.  But
I don't know the guy, so I have no way of knowing if that's true or not.

Paul

Donovan Arnold wrote:

  Paul,

  I agree with most of what you said. But I believe there is a
difference between a citizen genuinely making a constructive criticism
and someone just out to point out flaws in our government and divide
people. 

  I don't disagree with Sunil's arguments against Bush and our
country, I just disagree with his motives and dangerous solutions to
problems. 

  A guy that does nothing but attack the character of our country,
its uniformed members, and never praising it, ever, raises concerns for
me. 

  I'm saying, it sure would be nice if Sunil could say something
nice about the country instead of bashing it and supporting its enemy's
agenda 100% of the time. 

  Best,

  Donovan

  Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
  An
attempt to put this in perspective.

The United States of America differs from some other countries in that
it is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. 
Our President, along with all other elected officials, is an ordinary
citizen who is supposedly carrying a burden in a self-less act of
devotion to the rest of us.  He is not royal, he is not a deity, and he
is not of an official upper class.  He works for us.  He does not have
the license to tell us what is "patriotic" and what is not.  What he
says about it is not Royal Decree, religious dogma, nor law.  It is the
opinion of a fellow citizen that coincidentally happens to bring him
more personal power if you agree with him.

Thus, it makes sense to keep an eye on him and to make sure that he is
doing what *we* want him to do, not what *he* wants to do.  If he is
doing something that goes against what the people voted him in to do,
then they are obligated to do something about it.  To do otherwise
would be to turn your back on the idea of a representational
government.  One way of "doing something" about it is to make your
concerns known publicly.  Sunil, and others like him, should be
commended for not allowing our representative to work against our
wishes.  

Our President is not representing me when he decides that we can be
allowed to use torture in our daily conduct as a nation, merely because
he can argue some loopholes in the Geneva conventions.  Thus, I make
this known.  He is not representing me when he decides that he can spy
on our private communications without legal warrants, especially when
he arrogantly ignores the process already in place that is not onerous
to get those warrants.  Thus, I make this known as well.  He is not
representing me when he orders secret camps in other countries to be
built to take our prisoners to when he wants them tortured without
benefit of public scrutiny, nor when he uses "extraordinary rendition"
to send suspects to other countries where he knows they will be
tortured.  He is not representing me when he uses "signing statements"
to change laws he doesn't like into laws he does like.  He is not
representing me when he bull-headedly sticks to his Iraq strategy when
it is clear that he doesn't have popular support for it, especially
knowing that he got us into this war with bad arguments made from bad
data that he knew was not true when he used that data to manipulate us
into backing him in this war.  

To remain silent is to betray your fellow citizens in the
representative democracy that we live in.  To "attack our country" by
stating our opinions and declaring "NO!" when we need to IS patriotism.

Paul

Donovan Arnold wrote:

      Reverend Keely,

      For the 409382th time, I already told you, I am autistic, I
don't have a real sense of embarrassment. Why that doesn't stick in
your head seems to escape me, other than you listen with emotions and
feelings rather than intelligent rational thought. Perhaps not having
rational thought is your disability. 

      But, obviously having a sense of embarrassment doesn't keep
you from saying stupid, cruel, arrogant, ignorant, and I guess
embarrassing things either does it. 

      I don't question Sunil's patriotism, I just question which
country he places that patriotism in. He attacks our country regularly,
he never says anything pleasant about it. He defends the Taliban, even
those that attacked our troops. And now he is blaming our men and women
in uniform for the failures in Iraqi that have done their job to the
best of their ability and very heroically too, might I add. 

      Sunil has taken great steps and carefully worded everything
he has said to cover the fact that he has a strong disdain for the
United States, and avoided every opportunity to cast doubt on that by
me and others.

      He has every right to hate the United States if he wants to.
Many people do. I just think he should be honest about it when he
criticizes this country so that we can see it in the proper context.
Right now, I view Sunil's words as words of a foreigner expressing his
opinion of the United States. I cannot view him as a patriot
questioning the policies of his country, until he gives me reason or
tells me otherwise.  He has not done so, and purposefully avoids doing
so.

      But once again Reverend Keely, I appreciate your moral
advise, for thou art holier than thee and all others. No doubt, in the
end, the pitch fork in your arse will be not be as hot or sharp as the
rest of ours. 

      Best,

      Donovan 

      keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
wrote:

At what point, Donovan, might it be said that you've embarrassed
yourself quite enough?  Is there a time that your brain and your
keyboard will stop their collusion in making you appear as you do?  

I've met you.  You're not that bad in person, and you undoubtedly have
a lot of good traits.  In fact, I found you quite pleasant.  But for
your own sake, as well as for the cause of civil discord, would you
please reexamine whatever it is about email that turns you into such a
badgering and bellicose pest?

And please remember that I'm not ordained; "Reverend Keely" is far more
than I'm entitled to.  

keely

           Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:55:03 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com;
          vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
Failures

          Sunil,

          You wrote:

          "Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being
Joseph."

          Clearly, I am neither. If I was McCarthy you
would praising me for my destruction of good leaders. If I were Joseph
you would be at my feet. 

          Don't blame others for not telling the truth
when it cannot be uttered from your own lips. 

          You have great courtroom tactics, Sunil. But
I assure you, you have answered the question for those of us that
wanted to know. 

          Best,

          Donovan

          Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:
          Moscow's
McCarthy continues to display his love of freedom by imposing 
loyalty tests.

Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being Joseph.

Sunil

>From: Donovan Arnold 
>To: Sunil Ramalingam , vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq

>Failures
>Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Sunil,
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Bush has said that the military has been sent all the troops they

>requested.
>Why didn't the generals request more troops from the beginning? Why
didn't
>they admit how poorly things were going and put it back in the lap
of the
>administration?"
>
>
> First, the Generals did ask for more troops and did give honest 
>appraisals of the situation, they just did not publish that
information for 
>you and the enemy to see in the Washington Post and New York Times.
>
> Second, there were no more troops to be had.
>
> Third, more troops wouldn't solve the problem, it would just make
the 
>problem larger. The problem was the political objective, not
military 
>incompetence. They have guns not magic wands. This was Bush's
blunder, not 
>the officers, soldiers, or generals over there.
>
> Fourth, it is UNACCEPTABLE for an officer to be going to the AP
and 
>personally attack his commanding officers. There are proper ways of
going 
>about filing a complaint about a misbehaving or incompetent
commanding 
>officer. What this guy did was wrong and dangerous.
>
> Finally, we are still waiting for you to say, "I love my country,
the 
>United States of America."
>
>
> Best,
>
> Donovan
>
>Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> Donovan,
>
>On the one hand I don't disagree that the administration 'screwed
this war
>up;' having said that, I think wars like this are always going to
end in
>failure. But since the war began, up until he announced the
'surge,' Bush
>has said that the military has been sent all the troops they
requested.
>Why didn't the generals request more troops from the beginning? Why
didn't
>they admit how poorly things were going and put it back in the lap
of the
>administration?
>
>It seems to me that generals saw the treatment Gen. Shinseki
received after
>saying that four to five hundred thousand troops would be needed
for the
>war, and they didn't want the same treatment for themselves. That's
their
>fault, isn't it?
>
>Sunil
>
> >From: Donovan Arnold
> >To: Tom Hansen , thansen at moscow.com,
> >vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of
Iraq
> >Failures
> >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Complaining is one thing. But going to the media and to
undermine the
> >command structure of the military during an actual military
action is not 
>a
> >right.
> >
> > And I don't believe him anyway. I think it is the
administration's fault
> >for screwing this war up, not the generals.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >Donovan
> >
>
>
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