[Vision2020] DNA exoneration reaches 200; questions remain for justice system

lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
Thu Apr 26 13:13:56 PDT 2007 

Bruce
I think a lot of people that support the death penalty would buy into your lat paragraph. As you asid. It woud be a big improvement ove the current situation.

Roger

Roger
-----Original message-----
From: "Bruce and Jean Livingston" jeanlivingston at turbonet.com
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:01:56 -0700
To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] DNA exoneration reaches 200;questions remain for justice system

> Roger, that is a civilized approach, and I welcome your willingness to think 
> about a difficult topic.  Of course, I will keep working on you and others 
> to see if I can persuade you to my side of the fence!
> 
> Your idea would be an improvement though  -- that is, if we continued to 
> instruct a jury to convict based on not having a "reasonable doubt" about 
> guilt, but then raised the burden of proof at the penalty phase and 
> instructed the jury not to give death unless it had "not a shadow of a 
> doubt."
> 
> Bruce
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> To: "Bruce and Jean Livingston" <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com>; 
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] DNA exoneration reaches 200;questions remain for 
> justice system
> 
> 
> > Bruce
> > I am not vary comfortable with the idea of collateral damage. I do not 
> > have a problem with the death penalty for Duncan and Shackleford. The two 
> > guys that killed my nephew at the Hot Spring next to Crouch should have 
> > had the death penalty, they did not. They will probably get out in 10 
> > years or so. O. J. is a little different. While I think he is guilty as 
> > hell, there is a smidgen of doubt. For that reason I would have had 
> > difficultly in convicting him, let along applying the death penalty. I 
> > think that the rule of "guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt" should apply. 
> > Since it doen't seem to work that way I am on the fence on the death 
> > penalty.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: "Bruce and Jean Livingston" jeanlivingston at turbonet.com
> > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:07:21 -0700
> > To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] DNA exoneration reaches 200;questions remain for 
> > justice system
> >
> >> Roger, there is no question that your arguments have some appeal, in the 
> >> sense that if we are to have the death penalty, there are some crimes 
> >> that are so heinous that they practically "cry out for it."
> >>
> >> My problem with your "tinkering with the procedures" approach, in an 
> >> effort to "fine tune" the system so that our administration of justice is 
> >> fairer, is that efforts to eliminate systemic error that allows for the 
> >> conviction of the innocent will only reduce the error rate, but not 
> >> eliminate it.   It seems to me that the costs of administering the death 
> >> penalty exceed the "benefit" of it, and that you also must accept as a 
> >> "cost of doing business" the inevitable execution of a few innocents.
> >>
> >> I changed my views about the death penalty, which I once favored, after I 
> >> was appointed to represent Roy Roberts, a man that I came to believe was 
> >> innocent.  Sadly, I was unable to spare his life or win his release. 
> >> Here is his clemency petition:
> >> http://ccadp.org/clemencyroy.htm
> >> Here is an article about Roy on the Northwestern University School of 
> >> Law's Center on Wrongful Convictions:
> >> http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/Executions/Roberts_Missouri.htm
> >>
> >> Having gone through the wringer of failing to save an innocent man's 
> >> life, I no longer accept an approach to the death penalty that amounts to 
> >> "collateral damage in the form of the execution of a few innocents is 
> >> acceptable."   In my opinion, having the death penalty is not worth that.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> >> To: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>; "Bruce and Jean Livingston" 
> >> <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com>
> >> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:30 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] DNA exoneration reaches 200;questions remain 
> >> for justice system
> >>
> >>
> >> >I am not sure that the death penalty should be totally abolished. Some 
> >> >people like Duncan surely deserve it. Maybe it should be restricted to 
> >> >just a few things. In any case due to number of people that are 
> >> >convicted who are innocent, there needs to be better safe guards put in 
> >> >place. In regard to the Attorney General's office, It does look like 
> >> >they blew it on the Idaho Falls Cace. Although it does'nt  rise to the 
> >> >same level of seriousness, they have also been hit and miss on enforcing 
> >> >the Open Meeting Law. In some cases they have done what they should. in 
> >> >others they have not. I will get into this more at a later date.
> >> > Roger
> >> > -----Original message-----
> >> > From: "Ted Moffett" starbliss at gmail.com
> >> > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 02:11:16 -0700
> >> > To: "Bruce and Jean Livingston" jeanlivingston at turbonet.com
> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] DNA exoneration reaches 200;questions remain for 
> >> > justice system
> >> >
> >> >> Bruce et. al.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--dnaexonerations-20423apr23,0,1071686.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess this is some kind of milestone...But not all these cases are 
> >> >> death
> >> >> penalty cases.  But the question is obvious:  if this many are 
> >> >> exonerated by
> >> >> DNA, how many on death row or imprisoned for other crimes are innocent 
> >> >> who
> >> >> do not have DNA available to prove or disprove their innocence?
> >> >>
> >> >> Likely a much larger number!
> >> >>
> >> >> The price we must pay for a justice system, or a justice system in 
> >> >> need of
> >> >> radical improvement?
> >> >>
> >> >> I won't even start...
> >> >>
> >> >> Ted Moffett
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 4/23/07, Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> 
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >  We confronted two high profile cases  in the last couple of weeks, 
> >> >> > first,
> >> >> > a declaration of innocence in the Duke Lacrosse case in NC, and 
> >> >> > second, the
> >> >> > apparent innocence of Rauland Grube in a murder case from 
> >> >> > southeastern
> >> >> > Idaho, on which I posted several days ago.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Now appears this series of editorials from of all places, Texas. 
> >> >> > The
> >> >> > Dallas Morning News editorial staff reversed its 100 year stance in 
> >> >> > favor of
> >> >> > the death penalty.  In so doing, it made many of the best arguments 
> >> >> > for
> >> >> > reconsidering our willingness to retain the death penalty.  The 
> >> >> > editorial
> >> >> > pieces are thoughtful and worthy of all citizens' review, especially 
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > states like Idaho that continue to have the death penalty.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >  I thought you might be interested in these recent Dallas Morning 
> >> >> > News
> >> >> > editorials.  The Morning News is historically one of the most 
> >> >> > conservative
> >> >> > major-city newspapers in the country, although it moderated somewhat 
> >> >> > when
> >> >> > the "liberal" competition folded.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/editorials/stories/DN-toy_01edi.ART.State.Edition1.43b925d.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/editorials/stories/DN-deathmonday2_16edi.ART.State.Edition1.42d305b.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/editorials/stories/DN-deathmonday1_16edi.ART.State.Edition1.42d1ffd.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The explanation about the Dallas Morning News' editorial slant is 
> >> >> > from my
> >> >> > sister-in-law, who resides there, reads the paper regularly, and 
> >> >> > forwarded
> >> >> > me the above links.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bruce Livingston
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > =======================================================
> >> >> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > =======================================================
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> > 
> 
>

More information about the Vision2020 mailing list