[Vision2020] Parting shots, fired high

[Carl Westberg]

Tony, as I write this, I'm watching and listening to a Pakistani graduate 
student at Virginia Tech eloquently, and calmly, while still obviously 
stunned, describe his first hand observations of today's events.  I'm 
hazarding a guess, without knowing with certainty, that he is a Muslim.  But 
perhaps not.  He seems precisely like the Muslim students I have helped in 
my job at the U of I.  I rather expect that these good, hard working 
students who are guests in our country at a difficult time, would not 
appreciate the rationale expressed below for your belligerent diatribes.  
And has been expressed before on this forum, this has nothing to do with the 
first amendment.  No one is challenging your right to say what you do.  But 
we do have the right to challenge what you say.  Carl Westberg Jr.


>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>To: "Walter Smith" <don.nergal at gmail.com>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Parting shots, fired high
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:36:28 -0700
>
>Dear Mr. Timid, Thanks for acknowledging that my participation in this 
>forum is not un-American after all.  Glad we resolved that wrenching 
>question.  As to my determination to force my beliefs down other's throats, 
>I simply feel that you do not have the right force your view down our 
>throats: that innocent children should be ripped in pieces from their 
>mother's womb.  For Christ's sake, Mr. hide in the shadows, which view is 
>more compassionate?  Life for the innocent, or death at your whim?  You 
>people are utterly mad!
>
>Apparently unsatisfied to reveal yourself as an insensitive enabler of the 
>culture of death, you then go on to accuse me of redefining racial 
>"epitaphs."  One wonders, surely you meant epithets?  You cannot grasp how 
>one could resent murderous bomb-throwers and then insult them without 
>having ill will toward any race in particular.  Why must one's use of 
>RAGHEAD or any other term, for that matter, be viewed from one particular 
>angle of meaning when the English language evolves regularly?  Gay used to 
>mean happy and carefree, now it means homosexual.  Fag once referred to a 
>cigarette, now, well....  You can see how the meaning of terms takes on 
>different meanings over time.  Why am I not allowed to participate in the 
>evolution of language?  You folks have been writing Newspeak for decades.  
>What's the matter Mr. Timid?  Can't take any of your own medicine?
>
>As for my comparison of Nick Gier to Josef Mengele:  Given Gier's whacked 
>out pronouncements which have consistently revealed him to be an 
>intellectual mutant, devoid of a soul, I STAND FIRMLY BY MY CHARGE.
>
>And YOU sir, need to cope with the first amendment and GET OVER IT!
>
>With the courage to sign my name,
>
>TONY
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Walter Smith
>   To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>   Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:46 AM
>   Subject: [Vision2020] Parting shots
>
>
>   First, I want to again say thank you to those willing to participate in 
>this forum, and for the welcome I have received from most, despite the 
>"drive-by posting" nature of my own recent semi-participation. Your taking 
>part in this forum, despite the personal dangers, is courageous and 
>demonstrates that there may still be hope for democracy. Thank you Debi, in 
>particular, for staying with it, even after facing the indignities some on 
>here are willing to hurl your way. Despite this, I do not believe I will 
>actively participate, for a number of reasons. I do not feel comfortable 
>posting here under my own name (nor do I believe it would be appropriate 
>for me to do so, at this time), but I dislike anonymous bomb-throwing. My 
>reason for posting here in the first place was anger, anger in particular 
>at the recent treatment afforded Mr. Johnson and Mr. Butler. In all truth, 
>the only reaction I have to much of what takes place on vision2020 is 
>anger, and anger is not something I need to promote in myself. It isn't 
>good for my blood pressure, nor for my soul. I may from time to time reply 
>on here again, probably as some new Moscow-special-powder-keg blows up once 
>more.
>
>   I was going to post some of the more offensive responses to my initial 
>joke as a sort of skin-thickness test; but decided not to, based in part on 
>the fact that the authors did not decide to make them public themselves, 
>and that while I would get some visceral pleasure watching the reactions, 
>no real purpose would be served. I also avoid it, because while intended as 
>a jab at over-sensitivity, I am about to display my own (perhaps over-) 
>sensitivity on a particular matter, and the irony would simply be too much.
>
>   On to that sensitivity...
>
>   Mr. Simpson would like to know what exactly he said that I find 
>"disgusting and un-American", and so I will respond to him here, once only. 
>In truth, I mis-used the term "un-American," as there is really little that 
>is more American than arguing politics, particularly with the vehemence Mr. 
>Simpson demonstrates. What I meant by it is that his posts generally argue 
>a position I find diametrically opposed to the true greatness of our 
>American way. He consistently supports an administration that is 
>undermining our basic freedoms, exemplified by the recent loss of habeas 
>corpus, although there are many other examples. He supports the 
>authoritarian imposition by government force of his own personal beliefs, 
>such as denying women the right to make their own reproductive choices, 
>denying due process to those accused of terrorism, and denying homosexuals 
>the basic human dignity of marriage. He also seems to enjoy employing a 
>favorite tactic of the white-supremacist, that being the tactic of 
>attempting to redefine racial epitaphs. Tony says "raghead" only applies to 
>terrorists, he has no problem with Arabs (while also being willfully 
>ignorant of fact that his term actually targets entirely different groups); 
>The vile hal turner says "nigger" only applies to gang-bangers, he has no 
>problem with blacks; "spic" only applies to illegal immigrants, he has no 
>problem with Mexicans; Yeah, right... More sick fantasies please. These are 
>the things I find "un-American." While I would not attempt to stop them 
>from saying what they will, their words do cost them my respect.
>
>   Any right you would deprive others of without due process, is a right 
>you yourself do not deserve. This is the same basic problem I have with 
>what J Ford has been saying of late.
>
>   As for what amongst Mr. Simpson's comments I find "disgusting", above 
>and beyond what I have already said, and the fundamental reason I have 
>little to no respect for the man: There is really only one thing, that 
>being Mr. Simpson's comparison of Prof. Gier to mengele. I tend to agree 
>with Godwin, that anytime a comparison to nazis is made, there is no longer 
>any hope of a rational conversation. I do understand that in the heat of 
>argument, inappropriate things will be said, and can certainly be forgiven, 
>even something so base as a nazi comparison, even something so evil as a 
>comparison to mengele. But Mr. Simpson did not seek forgiveness after 
>cooling down, nor did he even recognize the evil he had committed (and yes, 
>I do consider saying what he said to be an act of evil,) rather he decided 
>to stand by his guns and reiterate his vile comparison. The things the 
>nazis did are near always beyond compare, we have thankfully not seen the 
>like for over half a century, and hopefully never will again (current 
>events, particularly the actions of our current "leaders", do give me 
>pause, however.) But the things mengele did go far beyond even typical nazi 
>filth, he was one of the greatest evils this world has ever faced, and in 
>my opinion far worse even than hitler himself. Short of the actual 
>re-creation of his atrocities (may that such a thing never comes to pass,) 
>nothing can compare. Any comparison to anything in our modern world is 
>inappropriate, only diminishes our collective memory, and serves to 
>legitimize mengele's deeds. Comparisons to serial killers, to terrorists, 
>to dictators, to rapists, or to anything else, can only weaken our 
>understanding and our rage. To make such a comparison to a person who 
>simply supports a woman's right to make her own choices (even if one were 
>to consider such a thing murder,) is beyond disgusting. Nick is not 
>kidnapping women and vivisecting them in the name of science, nor is he 
>even performing abortions, he is simply pro-choice. Mr. Simpson's words in 
>actuality say nothing about Prof. Gier, but they do show grave disrespect 
>to those who were tortured and died at mengele's hands, insult those who 
>laid down their own lives to stop him, risk legitimizing his crimes (thus 
>putting all our descendants futures at risk,) and reveal Mr. Simpson 
>himself as a degenerate.
>
>   Sincerely, and at least for now, finally,
>   Anon
>
>
>
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